D&D General The Role and Purpose of Evil Gods

[Chaosmancer]

Context is your friend. We are discussing the sentence about Apendix B, so no, any elven ancestor would not apply. Also, the elven court is not any of the three categories of quasi-divine beings. They are not demigods. They are not titans. And they are not vestiges. If you're going to be a stickler about demigod, you can't turn around and declare that beings that don't fit into any of the three categories are quasi-divine beings. If you can add them, I can add in The Red Knight and others as demigods.

Which is it?

a) I agree context is your friend. We are referring to rules for a background that is general use. Additionally, "elven ancestors" would still be wrong, because again it implies that any elven ancestor from Aerenal (using the Eberron Context) counts, and they don't the Undying Court is very specific. And this still does nothing to address the Blood of vol or the Path of Light.

b) I agree that the Eberron model doesn't fit into the standard DnD model of divinity. They do not fit into any of the categories presented, because "Extremely powerful undead conglomerate sustained by the faith and love of their people" isn't one of the three standard options. HOWEVER, The Red Knight and other beings DO fit into the standard model. They fit perfectly in as Lesser Gods. Nothing about their role, existence, ect is contradicted by being Lesser Gods. Especially as DnD 5e has redefined the terms. Even being Exarchs doesn't change this, as we have had Greater Gods who were exarchs in 4e.

What you have to let go of is that 5e is using the same terms in the same way as older editions. At this point, it is very clear they are not, and have never been.

As a CR 9 monster? Nope.

Again "single member of the Court" =/= "The Entire Court". And, if you bothered to learn about the Undying Court, you would know that their power comes from cooperation.

You argument here is like saying that US military is weak because a single Marine with a rifle isn't that strong. A single member of the court is not the entirety of the Court.

You can't assume a change. You have to be able to prove a change. Not everything changed.

Obviously not everything changed. But the definition of Demigod DID change, and we have proven that. And the beings that were listed as Demigods are no longer listed as demigods and we have proven that. I truly don't know what more evidence you need of a change than the literal changes that I have shown you. 5e isn't 4e or 3.5 or 2e or 1e. Demigods in 5e aren't the same as the demigods of other editions.

Oookay, like that's what I said.

So why is she worshiped? She's a glorified Deva messenger then, who does nothing for the people. Why does she have a church and priests? Why would Tempus put up with her temples and worship when he is the one doing all the work. This is like the people of a medieval town treating the Royal Messenger as though he was the King. It is completely insane.

It also flies in the face of the information we are given in the Sword Coast guide, which indicates she is worshiped because while she works with Tempus, she is also still a deity who answers prayers and grants spells. Nothing in the Sword Coast says that Tempus does these things for her, you are just making that up to justify calling her a Demigod, when 5e has changed the definition of Demigod.

No he hasn't. He has been portrayed to have an empire, and to have worshippers, but nothing says that the entire empire worships him. That's you making gross assumption.

If you mean "every man, woman, child and dog" then sure. But I think it is a far bet to say over 50% of the empire worships him. That's kind of how this "state religion enforced by a tyrant" thing works.

And, no, I am not going to except "but he's evil and people don't like him, so they aren't REALLY worshiping him" because as established, multiple times, that would apply to almost every single evil deity in Greyhawk who do the same things. If there are enough people willing to worship the god of "I want everyone to get sick with terrible diseases and die" to make him a Greater God, then I'm pretty sure that "Worship me because I have built an empire and am incredibly powerful" can get a large following from the populace, even if he does do standard bad guy things.

Edit: Also, quite literally everything Pemerton just quoted.

 

[Mirtek]

Fir what it's worth I believe that the vast majority of former demigods have been promoted to gods just because 5e demoted the term demigod.

The were fully functional spell-granting deities before and the designers just wanted to keep them that way.

For some reason they also wanted to redefine the term demigod in D&D (probably to make it match the common understanding of the word) and that meant they had to promote most former demigods

 

[Maxperson]

I really don't know what you're talking about.

Boxed set campaign guide, pp 27, 57:

In addition to the many evil clerics, thieves, fighters, assassins, and magic-users who have gathered under the grim banner of Iuz, numbers of the foulest tribes of humanoids have grown in strength and are ready to march. Goblins, orcs, and hobgoblins in the thousands are known to be in arms, selling the human contingents of Iuz's armies. . . .​

​

Iuz rules a portion of Oerth . . . Few creatures beyond the boundaries of this domain will speak his name, let alone adore him. . . .​

​

There is great enmity between Iuz and St Cuthbert. This is carried on by the servants of Iuz and St Cuthbert's followers as well.​

From the Ashes Atlas of the Flanaess, pp 29, 94:

Terrifying tales circulate about events in the lands of Iuz. His priests are known to carry ebony staves tipped with silver and bound skulls . . . A steady stream of victims from all the new lands subject to Iuz's rule is herded towards Dorakaa along the Highway of Skulls. The nature of their dispatch does not bear thinking about. . ..​

​

Senior priests are now token rulers of many provinces of Iuz's expanded domain, although Iuz holds them responsible for events therein, so this is a mixed blessing.​

Iuz the Evil, pp 4, 6, 7, 15:

In his homeland, Iuz has total control of the evil bandits and humanoids who dwell therein. . . In some lands humanoids form the majority; in others, this is not so. . .. The role of fiends differs greatly from land to land also, and while in some lands humans are used as slaves and sacrifices only, in other Iuz's forces still seek to draw evil (or at least non-good) people into their fold. . . .​

​

The control problem takes different forms. Sometimes, it is simply making sure that chaotic or poorly-disciplined humanoids don't disobey orders . . . Iuz's priesthood, and sometimes a fiend or two, are given this duty and generally they discharge it well enough. . . .​

​

Iuz has been able to rise in power so swiftly in part because no great Power of Oerth has struck out against him. There is an important reason for this. Iuz has the Prime Material as his home plane, and Oerth as his home world within that plane. Other Powers dwell elsewhere and look over many worlds on the Prime Material. Thus, they do not give Oerth the undivided attention Iuz does, and it is almost a Law of the Powers that they do not intervene directly in the Prime Material to strike at a deity which has its being there. . . . So, Iuz has his own domain and other Powers cannot, or choose not to, act against him. . . .​

​

Priest of Iuz rule by fear over the slaves, humanoids, non-priestly human servitors of Iuz, least fiends, and even lesser fiends if the priest is powerful enough. . . . In the lands where Iuz has a firm grip, a chronic state of fear runs through the priesthood. Each fears his senior and feels unable to act against them . . .​

​

[T]he term "Land of Iuz" is used to denote the original heartland of the Old One. . . . The priesthood of Iuz rules this land. . . . everyone knows who's in command here.​

The Living Greyhawk Gazetteer, p 58:

Iuz, Empire of . . .​

Religion: Iuz . . . all others are aggressively suppressed, particularly cults of Nerull and Vecna, and any Good religions . . .​

I think it's pretty clear that there are many clerics/priests of Iuz. They rule his land(s) through fear. Control over the evil dwellers in Iuz's heartland/homeland is total.

We're not told how sincere any of this is. But sincerity doesn't seem like an integral part of the worship of a chaotic evil demigod who rules through fear.

What is many clerics? 100? 200? 300? Nothing in what you quoted says the entire empire worships him, or even that half does. And fear does not equate to worship. All you've done with those quotes is show that he has some clerics.

 

[pemerton]

Let's consider the following sentence, from p 57 of the campaign guide in the WoG boxed set:

Few creatures beyond the boundaries of this domain will speak his [ie Iuz's] name, let alone adore him.

Now suppose it were true that few creatures within the boundaries of his domain adored him, the above sentence would be misleadingly incomplete. Thus it implicates that, within Iuz's domain, more than a few creatures adore him.

Read with the rest of the material, all of which is consistent over its nearly 20 years of publication (and it is a full 20 years of publication if we include the Folio, which I didn't quote from but which will overlap with the boxed set), we have a picture of a mad god who rules a domain in which more than a few adore him, and his clerics enforce his will, and all other worship is suppressed.

Suggesting that evil gods like Nerull and Incabulos have more worshippers than Iuz is ridiculous. There is no support for that in the Greyhawk materials. The only evil god who might have worship on the same sort of scale is Hextor, because of the Great Kingdom.

 

[Maxperson]

What you have to let go of is that 5e is using the same terms in the same way as older editions. At this point, it is very clear they are not, and have never been.

Demigod is the same as it was. And if you're only example is in Eberron, it fails. All we know is that there are quasi-deities on that list and that the DM has to decide which they are. How is he going to decide. If he's only 5e, probably abitrarily. If he's familiar with past editions, he'll probably reason that prior demigods are still demigods.

You argument here is like saying that US military is weak because a single Marine with a rifle isn't that strong. A single member of the court is not the entirety of the Court.

We have the best equipment. Take the equipment away and all the Marines in the America lose to armed rabble. An equivalent to the Marines would be if the Undying Court got it's power from lots of powerful magic items.

Obviously not everything changed. But the definition of Demigod DID change, and we have proven that. And the beings that were listed as Demigods are no longer listed as demigods and we have proven that. I truly don't know what more evidence you need of a change than the literal changes that I have shown you. 5e isn't 4e or 3.5 or 2e or 1e. Demigods in 5e aren't the same as the demigods of other editions.

And you have yet to prove that the Undying Court is on the list in any capacity. They are not a greater god. they are not a lesser god. They are not a quasi-deity. Yet they are there. So either they don't belong on that list and they are a mistake, or there are beings that don't fit the limited descriptions of divine powers in the DMG and yet still fall into those categories. Like demigods that ascend from mortal to demigod.

You choose? This is a true dichotomy. Either those limited descriptions in the DMG are all that falls into those categories or they are not.

So why is she worshiped? She's a glorified Deva messenger then, who does nothing for the people. Why does she have a church and priests? Why would Tempus put up with her temples and worship when he is the one doing all the work. This is like the people of a medieval town treating the Royal Messenger as though he was the King. It is completely insane.

You do know that the clerics would be entirely unaware that she isn't granting those spells, right? As well as her worshippers. And he is not doing all the work. She does her exarch work. Here, since apparently you've ignored what I said and are claiming that all she does is deliver messages, I'll link exarch for you.............................again.

Exarch

Exarchs were the most powerful servants,[1] agents and champions of gods, demon lords, and other beings of great power.[2] They were low-ranking divinities and were often referred to as demigods.[3][4] In most cases, an exarch was a mortal servant of a god,[1] usually a greater god,[3][5] that...

forgottenrealms.fandom.com

It also flies in the face of the information we are given in the Sword Coast guide, which indicates she is worshiped because while she works with Tempus, she is also still a deity who answers prayers and grants spells. Nothing in the Sword Coast says that Tempus does these things for her, you are just making that up to justify calling her a Demigod, when 5e has changed the definition of Demigod.

Nothing in her write up says anything about answering prayers or granting spells. It does show that she serves Tempus, though. In her temples are altars to Tempus.

If you mean "every man, woman, child and dog" then sure. But I think it is a far bet to say over 50% of the empire worships him. That's kind of how this "state religion enforced by a tyrant" thing works.

Fear does not equate to worship. Not even close to 50% worships him.

 

[Maxperson]

Let's consider the following sentence, from p 57 of the campaign guide in the WoG boxed set:

Few creatures beyond the boundaries of this domain will speak his [ie Iuz's] name, let alone adore him.

Now suppose it were true that few creatures within the boundaries of his domain adored him, the above sentence would be misleadingly incomplete. Thus it implicates that, within Iuz's domain, more than a few creatures adore him.

Not few does not automatically = many. Some is more than few.

Read with the rest of the material, all of which is consistent over its nearly 20 years of publication (and it is a full 20 years of publication if we include the Folio, which I didn't quote from but which will overlap with the boxed set), we have a picture of a mad god who rules a domain in which more than a few adore him, and his clerics enforce his will, and all other worship is suppressed.

But again, more than a few does not equate to many. And clerics, even many of them, are still a very small number. No god has thousands and thousands of clerics. Many clerics is just a few hundred at most.

Suggesting that evil gods like Nerull and Incabulos have more worshippers than Iuz is ridiculous. There is no support for that in the Greyhawk materials. The only evil god who might have worship on the same sort of scale is Hextor, because of the Great Kingdom.

Hextor is the only war god. He'd have warriors praying to him for victory in just about every battle. They wouldn't be Hextor church goers, but they would believe and pray to him as a war god, just as sailors sacrifice to placate sea gods who are mercurial or cruel. On the other hand, Iuz is only pain and oppression and other than a few insane individuals, nobody is going to pray for that. Inside his borders they are going to know it is futile to pray to him to lift the pain and oppression, so that sort of worship is not going to happen, either.

Nerull as the only god of death gets the prayers to let loved ones hang on longer, etc. He will have a small hard core crowd, but he gets lots of belief and prayers by the non-evil folk who don't go to churches or want people killed.

Incabulos would again receive lots of prayers to lift the famines and illnesses that abound around the world. Placating prayers that we know that Iuz does not get, because, "Few creatures beyond the boundaries of this domain will speak his [ie Iuz's] name, let alone adore him."

You guys have yet to show that any major number of people within his Empire worship him.

 

[Voadam]

Which is hardly surprising. Most D&D advice books don't set out to create complete, impermeable, unchangeable frameworks within which to express any possible D&D setting. From DDG onwards (at least - maybe I should be saying from the Supplements onwards or even from Chainmail onwards) they have presented what are intended to be useful ideas and categories out of which one might build a setting and its many and multi-faceted elements.

The fact that a D&D advice book has a section on animals and another on plants doesn't mean that a particular D&D setting can't contain creatures that are both (eg some interpretations of Treants or Wolves in Sheep's Clothing might take such a line). It's a heuristic, not a statement of axioms.

Likewise for discussions of gods. It's madness to look at one proffered taxonomy in one part of one book - the 5e DMG, the original DDG, or anything else - and think that every imaginable D&D setting will, or must, fit into ti!

I normally consider the PH more as a D&D rules book than as a D&D advice book except the areas it specifically talks about advice. The 5e DMG has a lot of advice sections and options, but also a bunch of default rules. The section on quasi-deities seems more a default definitional rule for the edition than a piece of optional advice.

Saying a Demigod in my 5e campaign can have clerics seems like saying a non-god demon lord or a quasi-deity in my 3e campaign could directly power clerics, a departure from a minor rule for the edition, not simply a choice different than a suggested option.

Reading the 5e PH every reference to clerics talks about how they need a god and how they channel the power of the gods. It says to talk to your DM about what deities are available in the specific campaign.

It also talks a bunch about how not every priest is a cleric.

The only 5e PH reference to philosophy is in the D&D Pantheon of Eberron section under other religions with the Blood of Vol and the Path of Light. If those philosophies were not listed in the Eberron Gods section with domains they grant I would have assumed from just the 5e PH that they were non-theistic religions that do not grant clerics powers in 5e. As it is, the setup seems to imply that the philosophies actually are or have deities, perhaps hidden ones powering their clerics. Also that the elven ancestor religions are full of elven ancestor gods.

Hidden gods and ancestor gods are cool concepts and work with the 5e PH god appendix and the 5e PH descriptions of clerics needing gods and channeling the power of gods.

Knowing 3e Eberron I know that whether there were any gods at all was an undefined setting mystery with clerics of incompatible cosmological beliefs gaining clerical powers.

Given the variety of cosmological setups in prior official D&D worlds that the PH presumably wishes to support out of the box (including tight pantheon Dragonlance, uncertain divine mystery Eberron, and elemental clerics but no deities Dark Sun), I would have preferred for the PH to explicitly tell players that while the norm is for clerics to gain their powers from deities, other cosmological setups can exist depending on the campaign and to ask their DMs about the specific campaign cosmology. Or to say they use divine power and leave divine power vague or undefined so it can encompass the various different cool ways that clerics have had their cosmological setups in D&D.

Looking at the DMG quasi-deity section of the divine rank sidebar I would have preferred that not be there at all. It is oddly specific and does not seem to add much to the game. It only serves to confusingly redefine the terms used for four types of historical D&D beings (quasi-deities, demigods, titans, and vestiges) and say they are not as a default gods and cannot grant cleric spells if they are worshiped, unless they get enough worship to ascend.

 

[Maxperson]

Looking at the DMG quasi-deity section of the divine rank sidebar I would have preferred that not be there at all. It is oddly specific and does not seem to add much to the game. It only serves to confusingly redefine the terms used for four types of historical D&D beings (quasi-deities, demigods, titans, and vestiges) and say they are not as a default gods and cannot grant cleric spells if they are worshiped, unless they get enough worship to ascend.

I agree with all of what you posted, except that there is a minor correction here. Quasi-deities is the category, not a specific type.

"Quasi-deities fall into three subcategories: demigods, titans, and vestiges."

Edit: Nevermind. I see you were talking about how quasi-deities are used differently in other editions. Tired minds don't always get it early in the morning.

 

[pemerton]

Fear does not equate to worship. Not even close to 50% worships him.

You're just making this up. It's got no textual foundation. I've quote the relevant texts over close to 20 years of publication. None of it supports this claim. It creates a picture of a land ruled by domineering priests who force obedience from those who don't obey willingly.

Hextor is the only war god. He'd have warriors praying to him for victory in just about every battle.

Again, you're just making this up. In Nyrond they pray to Heironeous. In Urnst (if I'm remembering rightly) they pray to Tritherion. Some warriors will obviously pray to St Cuthbert, others to Pholtus, others to Mayaheine.

Your claims have no textual basis, and in fact run contrary to what the texts state and imply.

Iuz is only pain and oppression and other than a few insane individuals, nobody is going to pray for that.

<snip>

Nerull as the only god of death gets the prayers to let loved ones hang on longer, etc. He will have a small hard core crowd, but he gets lots of belief and prayers by the non-evil folk who don't go to churches or want people killed.

Incabulos would again receive lots of prayers to lift the famines and illnesses that abound around the world.

And again, this is all just you making stuff up. Nowhere does the Greyhawk material say this. None of it suggests that people pray to Nerull to prolong life. He is the Foe of all Good and the Hater of Life. To prolong life people pray to nice gods like (again) St Cuthbert, or Pelor, perhaps Rao, or even Istus. Similarly when it comes to disease and famine.

Furthermore, it's contradictory. People pray to Incabulos to relieve disease, and Nerull to hold off death, you say, but no one prays to Iuz to ward off pain and oppression? Your own theory is incoherent!

 

[Voadam]

Demigod is the same as it was.I think the 5e definition of Demigod has changed.

In prior editions demigod was the weakest of the categories of gods and could come about from a number of different ways and not limited to having both a mortal and a god parent. A number of gods ascended to demigod status (such as Zagyg) and other more powerful gods fell to that status (Jergal). In the 5e DMG page 11 definition they are only the children who have both divine and mortal parents.

In 5e demigods are quasi-deities as a default and not gods, but they can ascend to become gods with enough worship. In prior editions demigods heard prayers and granted spells to their clerics.

And if you're only example is in Eberron, it fails. All we know is that there are quasi-deities on that list and that the DM has to decide which they are. How is he going to decide. If he's only 5e, probably abitrarily. If he's familiar with past editions, he'll probably reason that prior demigods are still demigods.

The appendix B list seems to be by its own definition lists of deities, even the Eberron other religions entries fall under Deities of Eberron and the elven ancestor spirits grant domains.

Appendix B's reference to acolytes on page 293 mentions only the gods:

"If you're playing a cleric or a character with the Acolyte background, decide which god your deity serves or served, and consider the deity's suggested domains when selecting your character's domain."

The acolyte description on page 127 says:

"Choose a god, a pantheon of gods, or some other quasi-divine being from among those listed in appendix B or those specified by your DM" so even if there are no quasi-divine beings on the Appendix B god lists, a DM can specify quasi-divine beings for an acolyte to worship.

It may be that it is just inconsistently written across these multiple interacting entries (acolyte description, Appendix B, DMG quasi-deities), but it can be worked out to be internally consistent if you want it to be.