D&D General The Role and Purpose of Evil Gods

[Chaosmancer]

Where are you getting these homes in the great wheel?

In 1e Deities and Demigods about half of these are different, Set lives in the Nine Hells, Loki's plane is listed as Gladsheim or Pandemonium. Thyrm and Surtur are listed as Gladsheim (Jotunheim). The 1e Manual of the Planes talks specifically about Set's conflicts with the archdevils on Hell.

1e MoP Page 111:

"A very different relationship exits with Set, the Greater Power of the Egyptians, whose single-minded pursuit of vengeance against Osiris, Horus, and the rest of his pantheon exceeds even the hatred of Loki for the inhabitants of Gladsheim. Set can accept no equals, only subservient minions. While a united devilkind is too powerful to defeat, they are not powerful or unified enough to launch a war and drive Set from "their" hells. For this reason Set controls a large swath of the first layer of Avernus, which under his command is lit by a blazing sun and is as bone-dry as the desert. Set makes his home in a great palace of white stone. Captives are set to work erecting a massive pyramid that he hopes will fill his layer and create his own set of planes between the Nine Hells and Acheron. If you are looking for a good example of a mad god, Set comes dangerously close."

Most of them seemed to be from later books, like the 3rd edition one, Deities and Demigods.

Loki for example does have a home on Pandemonium, but also has a home in Asgard.

I also never saw the stuff on Set when looking it up.

 

[Maxperson]

I never said it did limit you to Eberron. It limits you to Appendix B, and those beings from Eberron are the only ones not listed as gods. So, is it not possible that those non-gods in Appendix B were the "quasi-divine beings" beings referenced?

No, because if those were the only ones they would have saved space and just listed them by name.

After all, if your only source is 5e... you would have no way of knowing those other beings were once Demigods. And the Sword Coast where you listed more never refers to them as Demigods.

You would have no way of know if Tempus was a demigod for that matter if all you have is 5e. Without anything further from WotC it's the DM's call as to which are demigods, but if you do know D&D history, then you would have a good idea of which ones to pick.

So, if an acoylte who can't cast divine spells begs their diety for safety, and the deity sends an omen leading them to safety... what would you call that? Because form what you just said you can't call it praying and a prayer being answered, because no clerical spell was cast.

I would call that DM Fiat.

So, actually, no she can't do that as a demigod. Explcitly in 5e, that ability was taken away. To hear an answer prayers, the job of an exarch, they need to be at least a Lesser Diety in 5e. And notably, all the demigods and exarchs that used to answer prayers and grant spells in previous editions... are not longer refered to as Demigods.

Yes she can, since it doesn't have to involve hearing or answering any prayers.

 

[Maxperson]

Then how was he a demigod Max? You claimed you needed a significant base of worship to pull that off.

Never said that for a demigod. Hell, demigods can be created by simple mortal divine ascension as a reward from a greater god.

 

[pemerton]

Chaosmancer linked a site, intending it to prove... something, can't remember. So I may have been confused about the edition, but I do believe that Chaosmancer was referring to 4e specifically at the time. It's been a while.

As @Voadam has replied, and as I anticipated in my post to which you replied, the Erythnul thing is from 3E.

In 4e Yeenoghu does not have clerics in the strict sense because - as has been discussed upthread - clerics are empowered by divine beings and Yeenoghu is an elemental/primordial being. (This is one manifestation of the broader 4e cosmology.)

But as I pointed out way upthread, and as @Chaosmancer has since pointed out, in 4e there are worshippers of Yeenoghu who receive power from him which is in functional and basic story terms the same as a cleric. In this respect 4e is like AD&D c 1980 - there is no fundamental difference between archfiends and evil gods in terms of their role in the fiction; although in 4e there are differences that matter to the cosmology and so can shape the details of their place in the fiction.

I can understand the confusion, as the conversation has gone in some pretty large circles. Max has claimed that the only way to be a god is to have a large body of worshipers. Or, if you are in FR, to have AO say you are a god. I pointed out that Iuz was a demigod, despite having a massive empire that worshiped him, meanwhile gods like Incabulos are full gods, but have very few worshipers. Max takes this to mean that Iuz wasn’t really worshiped, that his entire empire just pretended to worship him because it turns out that he was too nasty, mean, and summoned demons, so people would never truly worship him like they do the god of “spread disease to every corner of the planet”

I think that is a load of bull. So, I have been pointing out that he WAS worshiped. That his worship only increased over the years, and that there is no reason to believe that in 90 years of his reign (because his empire lasted despite him being imprisoned) he was not able to indoctrinate the population into actually worshiping him, and that they were just going through the motions and pretending for four generations.

Max has countered by saying that Iuz was captured and the Horned Society existed, so clearly the writers saying that he was worshiped as a full god were wrong, because he wasn’t a full god, he was captured. And other such head-scratchers.

OK. That's all a bit bonkers. There's no doubt that Iuz has many worshippers. And in GH there's no particular correlation between number or fervency of worshippers, and divine standing. In the 1984 boxed set most of the popular, widely worshipped gods (St Cuthbert, Tritherion, Pholtus, Fharlaghn, etc) are Lesser Gods - which reflects their place in the mythic history (they are newer, less "primordial" gods) rather than their popularity.

Also, and following on from @Voadam's post about 2nd ed AD&D Monster Mythology: in the 1980 DDG, in the Non-Human section, there is an entry for Ixitxatchitl which says that they worship Demogorgon. And the MM entry (published 1977) says that Ixitxatchitl are clerics. And the PHB (1978) and DMG (1979) both say that clerics get their spells from gods/deities. All of which seems to entail that Demogorgon is a demon prince who is a god.

 

[Lanefan]

I know. And I don't like it. It is one of my biggest pet peeves with World-building is to have so many opposing factions that never interact.

It's relatively easy to explain in many cases, though, as the factions may be based or centered in widely separated areas of the world, with the only real interactions coming via remote agents in distant places.

For an FR example: if you've got an evil cult based in Waterdeep, an evil cult based in Mirabar, an evil cult based in Silverymoon, and half a dozen others based in other far-flung places, you could write them all up to your heart's content as whatever you want them to be, as odds are high their interactions might consist of very small numbers of opposed agents meeting in some neutral place; or small numbers of agents trying to infiltrate one of the other cults.

For Example, Loki lives in Asgard, which is in Ysgard, which is one of the Upper Planes. He's Evil. Same with Aegir and other evil Norse Gods.

Your Loki and mine are a bit different: I have Loki as one of two divine representations of Chaotic Neutral. (he's one of my 21 true deities)

 

[Lanefan]

Looked it up a little more.

Set's home plane of the Nine Hells in 1e Deities and Demigods and Manual of the Planes is different than the Twelve Hours of Night in the 3.0 DDG which is different from Stygia in 2e FR Powers and Pantheons which is different from Heliopolis in 3.0 FR Faiths and Pantheons. Set has four different home planes referenced across three editions.

This guy must have his moving-and-hauling company on speed dial.

 

[Chaosmancer]

No, because if those were the only ones they would have saved space and just listed them by name.

Well, since 5 < ~16 I would have to say you are wrong, utterly wrong, on the idea that listing some 16 or more words by listing those four groups by name would save space compared to the 5 words they used.

You would have no way of know if Tempus was a demigod for that matter if all you have is 5e. Without anything further from WotC it's the DM's call as to which are demigods, but if you do know D&D history, then you would have a good idea of which ones to pick.

So you agree with me that 5e doesn't make it well known, now, go back and read the DMG. Again. Since Tempus is listed as a god, with a clerical domain, people are likely to go with him being a god, that can answer prayers. They have no reason to assume that he is a demigod, born of the union of a god and a mortal. And if they look up his history, he is not the child of a god and a mortal.

Because, again, if you read the DMG (again) you will see that while, yes, Demigod is a notation of power, it is specifically the power of "the union of a deity and a mortal being" per the 5e DMG. What I did not realize until this conversation forced me to reexamine everything, is that 5e changed this aspect of DnD when it was released. Divine ranks are essentially gone in 5e, and they are much closer to the 1e model of what makes a god.

I would call that DM Fiat.

"DM Fiat of Salvation" doesn't have a good ring to it. But sure, utterly avoid the question when you realize how wrong you are.

Yes she can, since it doesn't have to involve hearing or answering any prayers.

How does hearing or answering prayers not have to involve hearing or answering prayers?! What do you even think the job of an Exarch is?!

Never said that for a demigod. Hell, demigods can be created by simple mortal divine ascension as a reward from a greater god.

You literally did.At this point though, when I am arguing basic math and reading comprehension, I think I must admit that you have zero interest in a legitimate discussion.

 

[Chaosmancer]

It's relatively easy to explain in many cases, though, as the factions may be based or centered in widely separated areas of the world, with the only real interactions coming via remote agents in distant places.

For an FR example: if you've got an evil cult based in Waterdeep, an evil cult based in Mirabar, an evil cult based in Silverymoon, and half a dozen others based in other far-flung places, you could write them all up to your heart's content as whatever you want them to be, as odds are high their interactions might consist of very small numbers of opposed agents meeting in some neutral place; or small numbers of agents trying to infiltrate one of the other cults.

Sure, but when you have multiple evil organizations that run the criminal underworld "world-wide" and they don't have any mention of how they interact.. it gets bizarre. You can more firmly localize them and then have it so their sphere's of influence interact less, but that does tend to change their fundamental existence.

Your Loki and mine are a bit different: I have Loki as one of two divine representations of Chaotic Neutral. (he's one of my 21 true deities)

Not my Loki. I don't use Loki in my games. I am talking about the Loki from the DnD Canon rules.

 

[Mirtek]

The last novel of the Sundering series actually lampshades this.

Part of the story takes place in candlekeep and there's hardly any monk left.

Every 'monk' is actually a spy for one of the countless secret evil organizations pretending to be a monk to spy on the other monks.

An older example is in the spellfire series. Shandril tries to get accross faerun by travelling with a caravan and just about every member of the caravan is an agent of a different evil organization, biding his time posing as caravan member to get a chance to strike at her.

The poor caravan master (one of the few normals) is close to losing his mind

 

[Maxperson]

Well, since 5 < ~16 I would have to say you are wrong, utterly wrong, on the idea that listing some 16 or more words by listing those four groups by name would save space compared to the 5 words they used.

Two groups, both called "elven ancestors" is not four groups. "Choose a god, a pantheon of gods, or some other quasi-divine being..." If you're going to say someone is utterly wrong, it's best for you not to be utterly wrong with your proclamation. That's the first thing. The second thing is that "Or some other quasi-divine being" is 33 characters, and "or choose elven ancestors" is only 25 and would actually tell people accurate information(if your assumption was true, which it's not). Third, the elven ancestors aren't even quasi-divine. They were like CR 9 creatures. Fourth,

So you agree with me that 5e doesn't make it well known, now, go back and read the DMG. Again. Since Tempus is listed as a god, with a clerical domain, people are likely to go with him being a god, that can answer prayers. They have no reason to assume that he is a demigod, born of the union of a god and a mortal. And if they look up his history, he is not the child of a god and a mortal.

It does not make it clear what the power levels are, no. However, since the acolyte tells players to look for quasi-divine beings(demigods) on that list, people are going to wonder which ones are.

Because, again, if you read the DMG (again) you will see that while, yes, Demigod is a notation of power, it is specifically the power of "the union of a deity and a mortal being" per the 5e DMG. What I did not realize until this conversation forced me to reexamine everything, is that 5e changed this aspect of DnD when it was released. Divine ranks are essentially gone in 5e, and they are much closer to the 1e model of what makes a god.

They also aren't titans or vestiges. Demigod is the closest thing on the list to them the "demigods" of old which are on the list as quasi-divine deities.

"DM Fiat of Salvation" doesn't have a good ring to it. But sure, utterly avoid the question when you realize how wrong you are.

The game provides no mechanism for hearing requests for omens and the request being granted. It's DM Fiat pure and simple.

How does hearing or answering prayers not have to involve hearing or answering prayers?! What do you even think the job of an Exarch is?!

Going down to tell a clerics, "Hey, Tempus wants you to beat up Fzoul." or deliver a message on that portfolio in person to a temple to let them know how important the request is, or personally handle something on another plane for Tempus since he's busy, or, or, or, or... Simply granting spells takes no time away from Tempus. It can't or he wouldn't have any time for anything else but granting spells to his own clerics.

You literally did

Literally did not. I've been arguing with you for pages now that Iuz is a demigod BECAUSE he does NOT have large bodies of followers, because if he did he would be a lesser or greater god. YOU are the one arguing that he must have a lot.