D&D General The Role and Purpose of Evil Gods

[pemerton]

If you are talking about the 1e DMG, you still needed a god to be a cleric in the first place.

Page 38: "It is well known to all experienced players that clerics, unlike magic-users, have their spells bestowed upon them by their respective deities. By meditation and prayer the clerics receive the specially empowered words which form the various spells possible for them — although as with the spells of magic-users, the utterance of any given set of key sounds not only causes the desired spell to take effect, but it likewise wipes the memory of the sounds from the mind of the utterer, as each set of sounds is an energy trigger (see SPELL CASTING). Of utmost importance, then, is the relationship between cleric and deity.
Each cleric must have his or her own deity, so when a new player opts to become a cleric (including a druid), you must inform them as to which deities exist in your campaign milieu and allow the individual to select which one of them he or she will serve. This will not necessarily establish the alignment of the cleric, so at the same time the cleric player character should also state his or her ethos (not necessarily to the other players). It is then assumed that prior to becoming a first level cleric, the player character received a course of instruction, served a novitiate, and has thoroughly read and committed to memory the teachings of and prayers to his or her chosen deity, so that the character is dedicated to this deity and is able to perform as a cleric thereof. It is this background which enables the cleric character to use first level spells.
Furthermore, continued service and activity on behalf of the player character’s deity empower him or her to use second level spells as well, but thereafter another agency must be called upon."

If you go by the 1e PH though druids hold certain natural phenomena as deities, so a rock as a deity might work, but a rock as a rock would not. page 21: "They hold trees (particularly oak and ash), the sun, and the moon as deities."

And Page 40: "Clerical spells, including the druidic, are bestowed by the gods, so that the cleric need but pray for a few hours and the desired verbal and somatic spell components will be placed properly in his or her mind. First, second, third, and even fourth level spells are granted to the cleric through meditation and devout prayer. This spell giving is accomplished by the lesser servants of the cleric’s deity. Fifth, sixth, and seventh level spells can be given to the cleric ONLY by the cleric’s deity directly, not through some intermediary source. Note that the cleric might well be judged by his or her deity at such time, as the cleric must supplicate the deity for the granting of these spells. While the deity may grant such spells full willingly, a deed, or sacrifice, atonement or abasement may be required. The deity might also ignore a specific spell request and give the cleric some other spell (or none at all)."

So the prayer only works if you are dedicated to the deity the prayer is directed to. It looks like nontheistic faiths would be out of luck in 1e RAW.

Yes. I think I quoted all the material upthread.

As I think we've also established, the concept of god in AD&D (at least pre-DDG) was very capacious, including - as you note - the sun, moon and trees as deities. And at least one Demon Queen (Lolth). And at least one cambion ascended by who-knows-what-method (Iuz).

It does not seem to have been a high priority in those early books to systematise all this stuff. I think that's a virtue of those books! The Greater/Lesser/Demi framing adds nothing to the game in my view (how does it improve play for clerics of Iuz to lack access to Unholy Word?) and intermediate gods seem like a clunky system to allow all those popular lesser gods (like most of the well-known GH ones) to be promoted simply to get around the spell level cap on their clerics.

I don't see what benefit is provided by the 3E DDG divine ranks system either.

 

[Mirtek]

You know what I would think of a world with hundreds of active gods, constantly not mentioned of interacting in anyway?

That's about every official D&D World in a nutshell.

And not just the deities. Usually there are too many mortal organizations that should get in each others hair constantly but all is just ignored.

All were just thrown in at some point for one specific reason or another and then just left there once their purpose was fulfilled.

Why not? Evil Gods exist in the Upper planes.

nope. While 4e called the astral sea "the plane above" it wasn't using the etablished D&D planar terminology.

The plane above was the new term for the former outet planes of old. Hell and other evil planes were part of the above.

 

[Faolyn]

What is the source for this? Erythnul is a GH deity. I don't think there was much GH product produced for 4e. When I search my collection of 4e Dragon and Dungeon magazines there seems to be no reference to Erythnul. This notion is found in the 3E DDG, so perhaps you've got your editions confused?

Chaosmancer linked a site, intending it to prove... something, can't remember. So I may have been confused about the edition, but I do believe that Chaosmancer was referring to 4e specifically at the time. It's been a while.

 

[Voadam]

Chaosmancer linked a site, intending it to prove... something, can't remember. So I may have been confused about the edition, but I do believe that Chaosmancer was referring to 4e specifically at the time. It's been a while.

That section of the Yeenoghu entry references page 8 of the 3.0 Deities and Demigods which matches the 3.0 BoVD in defaulting planar lords as Divine Rank 0 non-gods but providing options to make them rank 1-5 demigods which would be lesser gods in 5e.

"DEMON PRINCES AND ARCHDEVILS
The default assumption of the D&D game is that, while powerful outsider and elemental lords exist, they are not gods, and they cannot grant spells to clerics the way deities do. Though they are powerful and often revered by those who share their alignment, they reach no higher than divine rank 0. The demon prince Yeenoghu is a classic example: He is revered by gnoll clerics, but the god Erythnul actually grants them their spells. Yeenoghu acts simply as a go-between, a patron of the gnolls and a loyal servant of Erythnul. Loyal, at least, until the chance for real godhood comes within his grasp. . . .
In an alternate cosmology, however, it may be important to allow these figures to grant spells. If evil clerics are to exist in a world dominated by a monotheistic religion with a good deity, they must have a source for their spells. In such a campaign, the demon princes and archdevils, as well as other elemental and outsider lords, may achieve divine rank 1 or higher, though they should not rise higher than demigod status (divine rank 5). Making them actual deities, however, means that the religion is not strictly monotheistic, since there are now multiple deities in the religion. If only one such evil deity exists, the religion is dualistic. If there are more than one, you have created a loose pantheon.
The alternative is to maintain these powerful creatures at divine rank 0 but give them the special ability to grant spells to their servants. If you want to limit this ability in some way, you can allow them to grant access to only a single domain, handicapping the demon-worshipers in a minor way when compared to clerics of the “true faith.” This approach better maintains the feel of a monotheistic religion in the game."

 

[Chaosmancer]

So he cannot be proven to have cult fanatics, so that's evidence of nothing. The MM says nothing about answering prayers. It mentions rituals, but says nothing about if those are even magical, let alone prayer answering. It also mentions worshippers, but that doesn't mean answering prayers, either. Aaaaaaand, the MM has no gnolls with spell ability. So no evidence in the MM, either. That leaves Volo's. I see mention of omens from him. I see rituals. I see visions. I see cultists. I see worshippers. Nope. No granting of prayers or spells.

They might be demigods now Doesn't really matter to me. I've proven factually that demigods incapable of granting spells are in the PHB in Appendix B.

Sure, but it doesn't say for all of them. Orcus is a god, so his cult can get spells. Demogorgon is a god, so his can as well. This is your logical failure. Just because All A(cult fanagtics) are B(demon cultists), doesn't mean that all B is A.

If you can't think of the reasons that I spelled out for you, I'm really not sure I can help you.

I have never seen anything saying Orcus or Demogorgon are gods, so I have no idea where you are suddenly pulling this from. Would you mind citing a source for this?

And actually, you HAVEN’T proven that demigods incapable of granting spells are in the Appendix B. You have proven that “quasi-divine beings” exist in Appendix B. Which could easily be the elven ancestors from the Undying Court, and not the beings like Iuz that are listed as gods, with spell granting domains.

You also seemingly don’t care whether or not you can prove that a god is a god, because I gave you five gods, asked for the exact same evidence, and you shrug emoji’d and said you don’t care to provide that evidence because you proved something unrelated. So, if you can’t even provide evidence for gods that match the level of evidence you are demanding for Demon Lords like Yeenoghu, perhaps your demands are a bit unreasonable.

Finally, omens that guide the gnolls are answering prayers for guidance. Gnolls use rituals such as divining in the entrails of their victims, and that is exactly what a prayer is, isn’t it? Asking for and receiving guidance from their god? I don’t see how the fact that they never statted up a gnoll cleric beyond the cult fanatic (which you still refuse to acknowledge because it doesn’t explicitly say Yeenoghu in the general write up for a general NPC) ends up meaning that Yeenoghu doesn’t grant gnolls magical powers, when there are multiple explicitly magical abilities they do have. All of which do come from Yeenoghu.

So 1) they CLAIMED it, 2) you don't read apparently, because after that it says, "In reality, Iuz was trapped under Castle Greyhawk by the Lord Mayor of Greyhawk, Zagyg Yragerne in the Mad Archmage's own quest for godhood." showing that he hadn't ascended, but was instead imprisoned, and 3) That was during an edition where you could get low level spells from faith alone without the person you worship or rock(because you could worship a stone and get spells) doing anything.

1) Yes, a sourcebook for Greyhawk claimed that people began worshiping Iuz as a full god. If you won’t even believe authorial point of views, and instead want to say “well, the writers SAY they started worshiping them, but I who didn’t write for the setting know better” then no evidence I ever provide would be good enough for you.

2) Yes, I am aware they were worshiping him as an ascended god when in reality he was trapped. How does him being trapped mean that they weren’t worshiping him as an ascended god? If I said “and all the people marched to the castle to free the princess, but in reality she was in the barn hiding” that doesn’t mean the people didn’t march to the castle, it just means they were wrong about where the Princess was.

3) But you didn’t become a demigod from faith alone did you? Other people needed to worship you. So, Zagyg captured a demigod named Iuz, meaning that he had people worshiping him in his empire, enough to be a demigod. Then, for the next 65 years his worship GREW because people thought he has ascended to a full-god. It literally says this, so I don’t understand how you can say that this is wrong.

Um, no. They knew he was gone and splintered. The Horned Society came from splinter groups. Nice try, though.

And who splintered to form the Horned Society? Was it the common everyday people? No. It was “some of his more opportunistic followers and a few of his fiends”

Well, the literal demons probably weren’t worshiping him as a god anyways, being Demons and all, so he only lost “some of his more opportunistic followers”. So, a few vizier or lieutenant level people who knew he was gone struck out. Meanwhile, the majority of the population carried on, and their worship of him increased, since they believed he was now an ascended full god. Also, there was only ONE splinter group, the Horned Society. Not multiple. One.

Yep. To be clear, it allows worshippers and priests of Demigods that can't grant spells.\

And worshipers and priests of gods that can’t grant spells. In fact, it is literally just “pious person background” which since this doesn’t disprove the existence of clerics of gods, I don’t see how this disproves the existence of clerics of other forces.

Why would he take the unnecessary step of sending it to The Red Knight. He just grants it.

But the Red Knight is his Exarch, the point of her is to intercede and deal with part of his portfolio. Answer prayers and grant spells. But she can’t do that if she is a demigod, so for her to be an exarch who is receiving prayers on behalf of Torm, then she either must be a lesser diety (allowing her to hear and answer prayers) or, like you said “Tempus probably does it, since she's his Exarch.” Which would be Tempus taking the unnecessary step, as you call it.

So, which is it? Are you right that it is an unnecessary step and Tempus just listens to and answers the prayers, or are you right and Tempus probably gathers the prayers to give to the Red Knight to give to Tempus? Because as long as she is a Demigod, she can’t hear and answer prayers on her own.

 

[Chaosmancer]

@Chaosmancer @Maxperson

I don't fully understand your debate about Iuz. But I have a shelf of Greyhawk books just to my left, and I reread the Iuz entries recently in order to make this post upthread:

I can understand the confusion, as the conversation has gone in some pretty large circles. Max has claimed that the only way to be a god is to have a large body of worshipers. Or, if you are in FR, to have AO say you are a god. I pointed out that Iuz was a demigod, despite having a massive empire that worshiped him, meanwhile gods like Incabulos are full gods, but have very few worshipers. Max takes this to mean that Iuz wasn’t really worshiped, that his entire empire just pretended to worship him because it turns out that he was too nasty, mean, and summoned demons, so people would never truly worship him like they do the god of “spread disease to every corner of the planet”

I think that is a load of bull. So, I have been pointing out that he WAS worshiped. That his worship only increased over the years, and that there is no reason to believe that in 90 years of his reign (because his empire lasted despite him being imprisoned) he was not able to indoctrinate the population into actually worshiping him, and that they were just going through the motions and pretending for four generations.

Max has countered by saying that Iuz was captured and the Horned Society existed, so clearly the writers saying that he was worshiped as a full god were wrong, because he wasn’t a full god, he was captured. And other such head-scratchers.

 

[Chaosmancer]

That's about every official D&D World in a nutshell.

And not just the deities. Usually there are too many mortal organizations that should get in each others hair constantly but all is just ignored.

All were just thrown in at some point for one specific reason or another and then just left there once their purpose was fulfilled.

I know. And I don't like it. It is one of my biggest pet peeves with World-building is to have so many opposing factions that never interact.

nope. While 4e called the astral sea "the plane above" it wasn't using the etablished D&D planar terminology.

The plane above was the new term for the former outet planes of old. Hell and other evil planes were part of the above.

Sorry, not what I was talking about, so you ended up being wrong here.

For Example, Loki lives in Asgard, which is in Ysgard, which is one of the Upper Planes. He's Evil. Same with Aegir and other evil Norse Gods.

For the evil egyptian gods such as Set and Sobek they live in Heliopolis which is found in Arcadia, an Upper Realm.

Olympus, where Ares resides is in Arborea, an upper plane.

So, again, we have evil gods living in the Upper Planes.

 

[Voadam]

I have never seen anything saying Orcus or Demogorgon are gods, so I have no idea where you are suddenly pulling this from. Would you mind citing a source for this?

2e Monster Mythology has a full write up for Demogorgon as a lesser deity venerated by ixitxachitl. There a number of Tanari Lords who are demigods or lesser deities with specific monstrous followings. Baphomet, Demogorgon, Juiblex, Kostchie, Lolth, Ssesinek, Yeenoghu. Orcus is not mentioned there though as no monstrous race or big proportion of them takes him as their specific patron.

2e is sort of the reverse of 4e as archdevils are not listed as gods, but several demon lords are.

 

[Maxperson]

I have never seen anything saying Orcus or Demogorgon are gods, so I have no idea where you are suddenly pulling this from. Would you mind citing a source for this?

Since you like wikis so much. You can follow the Demogorgon link to the second quote.

"Ever hungry for more power, Orcus wanted to be recognized as "Prince of Demons", a title held by Demogorgon and coveted also by Graz'zt. As a result, he became the arch-enemy of both demon lords. In time, Orcus also achieved true godhood."

"Demogorgon was a powerful demon lord and lesser deity from the Abyss"

Orcus

Orcus, also known as Tenebrous[4][7][23] was a demon prince and purported primordial[24] that served as master of the undead from the depths of the Abyss.[11][25] Returned from undeath but not technically alive, the Demon Lord of Undeath was the multiverse's staunchest advocate for stagnation...

forgottenrealms.fandom.com

And actually, you HAVEN’T proven that demigods incapable of granting spells are in the Appendix B. You have proven that “quasi-divine beings” exist in Appendix B. Which could easily be the elven ancestors from the Undying Court, and not the beings like Iuz that are listed as gods, with spell granting domains.

Um, yes I have. I guess I have to quote it for you again. "Choose a god, a pantheon of gods, or some other quasi-divine being from among those listed in appendix B..." It does not limit you to Eberron, but nice try.

Finally, omens that guide the gnolls are answering prayers for guidance. Gnolls use rituals such as divining in the entrails of their victims, and that is exactly what a prayer is, isn’t it?

No. Prayers in the context of clerics are divine spells. Omens are just things sent by the Demon Lord. He could send a black crow to hit a tree, and then the gnolls would interpret that.

Asking for and receiving guidance from their god? I don’t see how the fact that they never statted up a gnoll cleric beyond the cult fanatic (which you still refuse to acknowledge because it doesn’t explicitly say Yeenoghu in the general write up for a general NPC) ends up meaning that Yeenoghu doesn’t grant gnolls magical powers, when there are multiple explicitly magical abilities they do have. All of which do come from Yeenoghu.

What part of magical power = divine clerics do you not understand. Warlocks get power from Demon Lords all the time. That doesn't make a Demon Lord a god that can hear and grant prayer spells.

And worshipers and priests of gods that can’t grant spells. In fact, it is literally just “pious person background” which since this doesn’t disprove the existence of clerics of gods, I don’t see how this disproves the existence of clerics of other forces.

I don't have to disprove clerics of Demon Lords. YOU have to prove it, since it was your claim. All I did was show how your "worshippers" and "priests" passages can be explained by completely non-magical means. Now you have to prove that what I've shown isn't true and that they really do grant clerical spells, and you have to show it explicitly.

But the Red Knight is his Exarch, the point of her is to intercede and deal with part of his portfolio. Answer prayers and grant spells. But she can’t do that if she is a demigod, so for her to be an exarch who is receiving prayers on behalf of Torm, then she either must be a lesser diety (allowing her to hear and answer prayers) or, like you said “Tempus probably does it, since she's his Exarch.” Which would be Tempus taking the unnecessary step, as you call it.

Yes. Yes she can do that as a demigod. There is no need for her to grant spells. All she needs to do is supervise the portfolios she has been put in charge of. That's the point of exarchs. Virtually all of them were Demigods or weaker. They're lower management like Solars.

 

[Maxperson]

I pointed out that Iuz was a demigod, despite having a massive empire that worshiped him

Something you have yet to prove.