D&D General The Role and Purpose of Evil Gods

[Maxperson]

In my game the above is an archetypal example of at least 3 missed shaving throws vs. confusion!

My God! Missed shaving throws are bloody!

 

[Rob Kuntz]

My God! Missed shaving throws are bloody!

In the ethereal sense as portrayed here, yes.

It has inspired me to create a new deity, Electross; and since its electrons run through every manifestation anyone worshipping it can grant spells!

 

[Faolyn]

I'm sorry. You presented evidence? I'd love to see it. So far all I've seen is your assumption that just because some cults have Cult Fanatics, that somehow proves that Yeenoghu must have them as well.

It might be worth noting that cultists of Yeenoghu who can cast spells gain a few extra spells. But none of the extra spells granted (Tasha's hideous laughter, crown of madness, fear) are on the cleric list.

They are, however, all bard spells.

But seriously, I checked, and only one archdevil gave a cleric-only spell: Zariel, the ex-angel, who offered spiritual weapon.

 

[Maxperson]

It might be worth noting that cultists of Yeenoghu who can cast spells gain a few extra spells. But none of the extra spells granted (Tasha's hideous laughter, crown of madness, fear) are on the cleric list.

They are, however, all bard spells.

Singing Hyenas?!

 

[Chaosmancer]

None of it from 5e, though. 5e is where demigods lose the ability to grant spells, so 5e is where you need to prove the promotion.

And for some reason the MM and Volo's declaring that he has cultists and answers prayers (things demigod can't do) and the cult fanatic with cleric spells who is designed for doing things like worshiping Yennoghu (but isn't specific to him since it is a general cult leader to slot into many different cults) isn't enough evidence for you because... you don't like it and therefore won't accept it.

Correct, but we have the PHB to prove otherwise about lesser and greater gods.

In general sure, but you can't prove that any given god has magical clerics in their church. You can only prove that a DM might include one, the exact same general use that the Cult Fanatic has, that you refuse to acknowledge.

I mean, you can show me a statted up 5e cleric of Celestian right? That's the exact same requirement of evidence you gave me, so that's fair, correct? Actually, I'll give you a better shot. Find me a statted out and officially printed cleric of Celestian, Ralishaz, Trithereon, Ulaa or Beory. That's five different gods/goddesses, so it should be even easier for you to find at least one officially statted up cleric for one of them, right?

I'm sorry. You presented evidence? I'd love to see it. So far all I've seen is your assumption that just because some cults have Cult Fanatics, that somehow proves that Yeenoghu must have them as well.

Cult Fanatics are literally listed as cult leaders for Demonic Cults. Yeenoghu has demonic cults, and we are specifically told that humans can rise through his cults to lead them. Even getting additional magic powers if you want to use the rules in Mordenkainen's, which actually directly states "Cult Leaders gain the Aura of Bloodthirst trait" which is supposed to apply to a non-gnoll. And, we have a statblock for a cult leader, the Cult Fanatic, which directly says " Fanatics are often part of a cult's leadership, using their charisma and dogma to influence and prey on those of weak will."

So, yes, I can't think of any reason to dispute this, except you don't like it.

Let's look at the Greyhawk wiki, since wikis are entirely accurate according to you.

First, your claim of 70 years of rule and indoctrination is bupkis. He took over in 479 and by 505 he had been defeated by a wizard and imprisoned under Castle Greyhawk. Some poweful god being he was to be taken out by a wizard. Anyway, that's 26 years and then the country gets to see just how weak he was. His followers split at that time. He comes back in 570, sixty-five years later. That's 65 years without this indoctrination. This time he lasts a mere 11 years before Vecna, who was only a lich at that time captured and then consumed Iuz, using him to become a real god(liches know how to do it!). That only lasted a year, though and he returned in 582. In 586 half his army was wiped out when many fiends were banished from Oerth. Now we're caught up in time and he has a broken rule in which he is repeatedly shown to be weak, and most of the 103 years since he appeared in that country have been spent by him imprisoned or dead.

Iuz

Iuz is the demigod of Deceit, Evil, Oppression, Pain, and Wickedness. Iuz is variously called "the Old One" and "Old Wicked," among other titles. Unlike most Greyhawk deities, Iuz makes his home on Oerth, where he rules a broad swath of the Flanaess known as the Empire of Iuz. His symbol is a...

greyhawk.fandom.com

Which proves you don't actually read the evidence. To quote directly from your own link: "In 505 CY Iuz vanished. Many of the orcs, clans that had served him for years, as well as some of his human followers claimed he has ascended to full godhood, beginning to worship him, and actually able to perform cleric spells based on their worship."

What's that? Real worship that led to clerical spells? I thought you said almost no one really worshiped him? Additionally, he was a demigod by this point in time, since if we follow the link to Zagyg it says "In 505 CY, Zagyg succeeded in capturing nine demigods of opposing alignments and imprisoning them beneath Castle Greyhawk.". So, in 26 years he was already a demigod, since that was when he was captured, and his worship only increased after that point.

Also, if we count this time of his people saying he ascended to full godhood and were actively worshiping him (because they didn't know he was captured) what do we find? Well, he was captured for 65 years, like you said, and what do you get if you add 26+65? 91. So, about 90 years. Like I kept saying. So, while imprisoned, the apparatus he had put in place, led to his continued worship and the indoctrination of the populace. Again, like I kept saying.

As I just proved to you in the quote, there are quasi-deities on that list who are incapable of granting spells. Perhaps their priests get spells from the god they serve. Perhaps it's up to individual DMs to promote them. But we have this absolute fact. 1) despite every god on that list being called a god and having domains, some of those gods are in fact demigods who cannot grant spells. I'll quote it again in case you missed it.

"Choose a god, a pantheon of gods, or some other quasi-divine being from among those listed in appendix B or those specified by your DM, and work with your DM to detail the nature of your religious service. Were you a lesser functionary in a temple, raised from childhood to assist the priests in the sacred rites? Or were you a high priest who suddenly experienced a call to serve your god in a different way? Perhaps you were the leader of a small cult outside of any established temple structure, or even an occult group that served a fiendish master that you now deny."

So, you are convinced that that refers to beings that no one would have any idea were demigods, and not to the ones like "The Blood of Vol: Philosophy of immortality and undeath", "The Path of Light: The Philosophy of Light and Self-improvement", "The Undying Court, Elven Ancestors", and "The Spirits of the Past, Elven Ancestors" the only things in appendix B NOT called gods, and which would be quasi-divine beings, such as vestiges.

Also, this is again for the Acolyte background, just to be clear.

Tempus probably does it, since she's his Exarch.

So, Tempus hears the prayer, sends it to the The Red Knight, who then takes it to Tempus, and then tells her to grant the prayer with magic, that Tempus then provides and uses to grant the prayer... seems like an utter waste of everyone's time if Tempus is just going to do all the work anyways.

 

[pemerton]

Let's go with Zaiden, the Gnoll Priestess from Dragon #364: Demonomicon of Iggwilv: Yeenoghu as a start of an explicit spellcaster that uses clerical spells. I don't know if that issue was during 5e or not, but it is the first result that came up.

I mentioned this example upthread already, as an example of demon princes in 4e having priests that are (in effect and function, if not literally) clerics.

 

[Maxperson]

And for some reason the MM and Volo's declaring that he has cultists and answers prayers (things demigod can't do) and the cult fanatic with cleric spells who is designed for doing things like worshiping Yennoghu (but isn't specific to him since it is a general cult leader to slot into many different cults) isn't enough evidence for you because... you don't like it and therefore won't accept it.

So he cannot be proven to have cult fanatics, so that's evidence of nothing. The MM says nothing about answering prayers. It mentions rituals, but says nothing about if those are even magical, let alone prayer answering. It also mentions worshippers, but that doesn't mean answering prayers, either. Aaaaaaand, the MM has no gnolls with spell ability. So no evidence in the MM, either. That leaves Volo's. I see mention of omens from him. I see rituals. I see visions. I see cultists. I see worshippers. Nope. No granting of prayers or spells.

I mean, you can show me a statted up 5e cleric of Celestian right? That's the exact same requirement of evidence you gave me, so that's fair, correct? Actually, I'll give you a better shot. Find me a statted out and officially printed cleric of Celestian, Ralishaz, Trithereon, Ulaa or Beory. That's five different gods/goddesses, so it should be even easier for you to find at least one officially statted up cleric for one of them, right?

They might be demigods now Doesn't really matter to me. I've proven factually that demigods incapable of granting spells are in the PHB in Appendix B.

Cult Fanatics are literally listed as cult leaders for Demonic Cults.

Sure, but it doesn't say for all of them. Orcus is a god, so his cult can get spells. Demogorgon is a god, so his can as well. This is your logical failure. Just because All A(cult fanagtics) are B(demon cultists), doesn't mean that all B is A.

So, yes, I can't think of any reason to dispute this, except you don't like it.

If you can't think of the reasons that I spelled out for you, I'm really not sure I can help you.

Which proves you don't actually read the evidence. To quote directly from your own link: "In 505 CY Iuz vanished. Many of the orcs, clans that had served him for years, as well as some of his human followers claimed he has ascended to full godhood, beginning to worship him, and actually able to perform cleric spells based on their worship."

So 1) they CLAIMED it, 2) you don't read apparently, because after that it says, "In reality, Iuz was trapped under Castle Greyhawk by the Lord Mayor of Greyhawk, Zagyg Yragerne in the Mad Archmage's own quest for godhood." showing that he hadn't ascended, but was instead imprisoned, and 3) That was during an edition where you could get low level spells from faith alone without the person you worship or rock(because you could worship a stone and get spells) doing anything.

What's that? Real worship that led to clerical spells?

Sure, low level ones granted by a rock, I mean their faith alone.

Also, if we count this time of his people saying he ascended to full godhood and were actively worshiping him (because they didn't know he was captured) what do we find? Well, he was captured for 65 years, like you said, and what do you get if you add 26+65? 91. So, about 90 years. Like I kept saying. So, while imprisoned, the apparatus he had put in place, led to his continued worship and the indoctrination of the populace. Again, like I kept saying.

Um, no. They knew he was gone and splintered. The Horned Society came from splinter groups. Nice try, though.

Also, this is again for the Acolyte background, just to be clear.

Yep. To be clear, it allows worshippers and priests of Demigods that can't grant spells.

So, Tempus hears the prayer, sends it to the The Red Knight, who then takes it to Tempus, and then tells her to grant the prayer with magic, that Tempus then provides and uses to grant the prayer... seems like an utter waste of everyone's time if Tempus is just going to do all the work anyways.

Why would he take the unnecessary step of sending it to The Red Knight. He just grants it.

 

[pemerton]

in 4e, he specifically got Erythnul to grant spells for him, according to the site you linked.

What is the source for this? Erythnul is a GH deity. I don't think there was much GH product produced for 4e. When I search my collection of 4e Dragon and Dungeon magazines there seems to be no reference to Erythnul. This notion is found in the 3E DDG, so perhaps you've got your editions confused?

 

[Voadam]

That was during an edition where you could get low level spells from faith alone without the person you worship or rock(because you could worship a stone and get spells) doing anything.

If you are talking about the 1e DMG, you still needed a god to be a cleric in the first place.

Page 38: "It is well known to all experienced players that clerics, unlike magic-users, have their spells bestowed upon them by their respective deities. By meditation and prayer the clerics receive the specially empowered words which form the various spells possible for them — although as with the spells of magic-users, the utterance of any given set of key sounds not only causes the desired spell to take effect, but it likewise wipes the memory of the sounds from the mind of the utterer, as each set of sounds is an energy trigger (see SPELL CASTING). Of utmost importance, then, is the relationship between cleric and deity.
Each cleric must have his or her own deity, so when a new player opts to become a cleric (including a druid), you must inform them as to which deities exist in your campaign milieu and allow the individual to select which one of them he or she will serve. This will not necessarily establish the alignment of the cleric, so at the same time the cleric player character should also state his or her ethos (not necessarily to the other players). It is then assumed that prior to becoming a first level cleric, the player character received a course of instruction, served a novitiate, and has thoroughly read and committed to memory the teachings of and prayers to his or her chosen deity, so that the character is dedicated to this deity and is able to perform as a cleric thereof. It is this background which enables the cleric character to use first level spells.
Furthermore, continued service and activity on behalf of the player character’s deity empower him or her to use second level spells as well, but thereafter another agency must be called upon."

If you go by the 1e PH though druids hold certain natural phenomena as deities, so a rock as a deity might work, but a rock as a rock would not. page 21: "They hold trees (particularly oak and ash), the sun, and the moon as deities."

And Page 40: "Clerical spells, including the druidic, are bestowed by the gods, so that the cleric need but pray for a few hours and the desired verbal and somatic spell components will be placed properly in his or her mind. First, second, third, and even fourth level spells are granted to the cleric through meditation and devout prayer. This spell giving is accomplished by the lesser servants of the cleric’s deity. Fifth, sixth, and seventh level spells can be given to the cleric ONLY by the cleric’s deity directly, not through some intermediary source. Note that the cleric might well be judged by his or her deity at such time, as the cleric must supplicate the deity for the granting of these spells. While the deity may grant such spells full willingly, a deed, or sacrifice, atonement or abasement may be required. The deity might also ignore a specific spell request and give the cleric some other spell (or none at all)."

So the prayer only works if you are dedicated to the deity the prayer is directed to. It looks like nontheistic faiths would be out of luck in 1e RAW.

 

[pemerton]

@Chaosmancer @Maxperson

I don't fully understand your debate about Iuz. But I have a shelf of Greyhawk books just to my left, and I reread the Iuz entries recently in order to make this post upthread:

From the GH boxed set campaign book, pp 27, 71:

Iuz, old Iuz of fearbabe talk, may be human - or may once have been human, but this is not known for certain one way or another. . . .​

​

For many decades . . . Iuz had been trapped by the mirthful and mad Zagyg, locked away in a strange chamber deep below the ruins of Greyhawk Castle, one of nine powerful demi-gods so confined. These prisoners were loosed in 570 CY . . .​

​

Whether Iuz is a human who ha become demon-like through the centuries, or whether he is a semi-demon, a cambion (as some suggest a by-blow of Orcus), no mortal knows. He is, however, the first known godling of chaotic evil . . . Few creatures beyond the boundaries of [his] domain will speak his name, let alone adore him. . . .​

​

Iuz is rumored to have a soul object secreted on the Abyssal Plane dominated by the demoness Zuggtoy (sic), with whom he is known to consort. He is thus free to roam outside his domain without fear of permanent harm.​

So there is no assumption here that being a (semi-)demon and being a (demi-)god or godling are mutually exclusive.

From the From the Ashes Atlas of the Flanaess, pp 28-29, 94:

Iuz himself is believed to have been born a cambion, a cross between a great tanar'ri lord and a femal human necromancer, Iggwilv. . . .​

​

When Iuz was locked beneath Castle Greyhawk, his homeland was able to wait for its master . . . When Iuz was freed in 570 CY, he had great plans for the Flanaess. Risen to the power of a demi-god, Iuz has achieved more than a few of his initial goals. . . .​

​

Iuz can be slain while on the Prime Material plane. If this happens, he is banished to the Abyss where he has a hidden soul gem . . . his palace holds a permanent gate to the Abyss.​

The 2nd ed version seems to suggest, in away the 1st ed version doesn't, that Iuz's status as a god is different from his demonic heritage. Though it does not have the sort of definitive tone some in this thread have used.

In both books he is flagged as a demi-god. In the 2nd ed book we are told that, in general, demigods are limited to granting 5th level spells but that because Iuz is on his home plane (the Prime Material) his clerics can have up to 6th level spells. As I mentioned further upthread, this 6th level spell limit is maintained in the later Iuz the Evil book.

In AD&D, whether one uses the PHB approach to clerical spells by faith alone (ie up to 4th level spells) or the DMG and DDG version (ie up to 2nd level spells; DDG is also the first place we see the concept of demigods not being able to grant spells above 5th level), there has never been any doubt that Iuz can grant spells of higher than the level in question.