D&D General The Role and Purpose of Evil Gods

[Maxperson]

Actually Bhaal was never a greater deity. At his height he was an intermediate power.

But nevermind that voluntarily becoming a demigod thing, that's the current 5e timeline and after remembering to get the Minsk book from drivethrough I now see that this is set in the past during the time of the first two BG games.

Hmm. I thought all three were greater way back when, but I guess not. Thanks for the correction.

 

[Maxperson]

@Mirtek this is the write-up on Bhaal in the new book.

"A wholly evil, debased and sadistic god, Bhaal—the God of Murder—is reviled by a majority of Faerûn’s pantheon; his divine foes include Chauntea, Helm, Ilmater, Lathander, Lliira and Tyr.

Before his ascension to godhood, Bhaal was a power- hungry adventurer on Toril. Along with his companions Bane and Myrkul, he sought to attain the portfolio of Jergal, God of the Dead. Jergal willingly offered his realm to the Dark Three, though they couldn’t decide amongst themselves who would rule. Upon Jergal’s suggestion, the three divided his power, deciding how to divide it based on the outcome of a game. The three played a game of knucklebones, and Bane emerged as the victor. He claimed the domains of hatred, strife and tyranny as his own. Myrkul, coming second, chose rule over the dead. Finally, Bhaal chose the divine province of death and murder.

A century ago, Bhaal foresaw that he would die in the Time of Troubles and enacted a plan that would allow him to return to life by creating the Bhaalspawn— mortal children imbued with a fraction of his divine essence. While that plan took more than a century to come to fruition, Bhaal has indeed been reborn. Having been dead for more than a century, he now works to rebuild his following, which will augment his divine power. Some of his most powerful and devout followers include his Bhaalspawn son Sarevok and the famous sky captain Pelyious.

Bhaal has two avatar forms: a corpse-like male humanoid called the Slayer, and a huge beast known as the Ravager. He hunts victims at night in his Slayer form. When he has killed, it gives him the power to transform into the Ravager"

 

[pemerton]

I'm making it up as much as you are making up this "massive" worship of Iuz. Nothing in your "close to 20 years of publication" that you've quoted comes anywhere close to saying or implying that he has massive numbers of worshippers. At best you have "many" clerics, relative to the very small numbers of true clerics that gods have, and have shown that it's more worshippers than a "very few." That's it. That's all you have shown with all of your quotes.

Here is a summary of what the actual published works tell us:

Iuz is a godling/demigod/god - most probably an ascended cambion. He rules a domain on Oerth. Other parts of the world contrast with this domain insofar as few people in those other parts of the world adore him. Worship of any god but him is suppressed in his realm. He has many clerics, including many in his realm, who exercise control through a mixture of devotion and fear.​

Does that picture logically entail that he has any particular number of worshippers? No. But it certainly does not suggest that he is not widely worshipped in his realm?. Nor does it suggest that the reason he is - in divine status - weaker than Nerull or Incabulos because of a comparative lack of worshippers. It suggests that he is weaker than them because he is newly ascended - but he is working on strengthening himself in part by building up his empire in which he, alone, is worshipped.

There's really very little ambiguity here. It's a mixture of REH (Hour of the Dragon and similar) and JRRT (Sauron and Mordor) tropes through-and-through.

 

[Mirtek]

@Mirtek this is the write-up on Bhaal in the new book.

"A wholly evil, debased and sadistic god, Bhaal—the God of Murder—is reviled by a majority of Faerûn’s pantheon; his divine foes include Chauntea, Helm, Ilmater, Lathander, Lliira and Tyr.

Before his ascension to godhood, Bhaal was a power- hungry adventurer on Toril. Along with his companions Bane and Myrkul, he sought to attain the portfolio of Jergal, God of the Dead. Jergal willingly offered his realm to the Dark Three, though they couldn’t decide amongst themselves who would rule. Upon Jergal’s suggestion, the three divided his power, deciding how to divide it based on the outcome of a game. The three played a game of knucklebones, and Bane emerged as the victor. He claimed the domains of hatred, strife and tyranny as his own. Myrkul, coming second, chose rule over the dead. Finally, Bhaal chose the divine province of death and murder.

A century ago, Bhaal foresaw that he would die in the Time of Troubles and enacted a plan that would allow him to return to life by creating the Bhaalspawn— mortal children imbued with a fraction of his divine essence. While that plan took more than a century to come to fruition, Bhaal has indeed been reborn. Having been dead for more than a century, he now works to rebuild his following, which will augment his divine power. Some of his most powerful and devout followers include his Bhaalspawn son Sarevok and the famous sky captain Pelyious.

Bhaal has two avatar forms: a corpse-like male humanoid called the Slayer, and a huge beast known as the Ravager. He hunts victims at night in his Slayer form. When he has killed, it gives him the power to transform into the Ravager"

So after reading a little more of the Minsk Guide I must correct myself, it's obviously set in present day realms. I was confused by seeing so many old NPC, but reading deeper into each, every one of them that should be dead by now actually comes with an explanation for still being around over a century later (from 'lol, I am elf idiot' to 'ha, I am undead now' to 'actually I did die went to the abyss, but I got a deal to be reborn' to "you see, I am a half vampire or quarter vampire, well it's complicated') .

So I guess what the told about the state of the dead three back in 2019 is no longer what they intend for them now. Or it still is and this avatar is the state that his special deal with Ao put him into. I am still confused by this supplement to be honest

 

[Maxperson]

Here is a summary of what the actual published works tell us:

Iuz is a godling/demigod/god - most probably an ascended cambion. He rules a domain on Oerth. Other parts of the world contrast with this domain insofar as few people in those other parts of the world adore him. Worship of any god but him is suppressed in his realm. He has many clerics, including many in his realm, who exercise control through a mixture of devotion and fear.​

Let's unpack that.

"Worship of any god but him is suppressed in his realm." That does not say or imply that his follower base is massive.

Next we have, "He has many clerics, including many in his realm." What is many clerics? When we see temples in a module, they have anywhere from a few to a dozenish clerics. If he has 20 full temples in his empire, that's what? 200 clerics? Double that and he's at 400. Not exactly massive numbers of worshippers and the common person isn't crazy enough to worship a fiend. fear one, yes. Worship one, no.

Does that picture logically entail that he has any particular number of worshippers? No. But it certainly does not suggest that he is not widely worshipped in his realm?

It doesn't suggest that he is widely worshipped, either. It suggests that he as a good number of clerics, even if that number is 1000, that's a small fraction of an empire and it doesn't talk about numbers of common followers at all.

Nor does it suggest that the reason he is - in divine status - weaker than Nerull or Incabulos because of a comparative lack of worshippers. It suggests that he is weaker than them because he is newly ascended - but he is working on strengthening himself in part by building up his empire in which he, alone, is worshipped.

If lack of worshippers isn't the reason why he is weaker, then why is he bothering to build up his empire in such a way that only he is worshipped? It wouldn't matter if he weren't the only one if numbers of worshippers didn't have a huge impact on his power.

Your second sentence does in fact suggest that he is weaker than Nerull or Incabulos because of numbers of his lack of followers, and that in turn suggests that he doesn't yet have that many in his own empire.

 

[pemerton]

@Maxperson, @Voadam has already posted upthread (over two or three posts) about the Greyhawk logic of Quasi-deities, Hero-deities, Demigods, and similar. In various places including the GH material Gygax also uses the term "godling".

There is a clear concept, in Gygax's mind and presented as part of this imagined world, that powerful mortal or quasi-mortal beings (like a cambion) can ascend to god hood. First they start as quasi-deities/hero-deities/godlings. Perhaps Iuz was always this because of his inheritance both as a cambion and from Iggwilv? Then the next stage is demigod.

There is no implication that you can jump straight to the same sort of power as Boccob just by having more worshippers. Nor is there any implication that Boccob's power is a result of having worshippers. Or any other greater god, for that matter. In fact we're told (on p 62 of the boxed set campaign guide) that "In general, the Greater gods are too far removed from the world to have much to do with humanity, and while they are worshipped, few people hold them as patrons." On p 70, we're told that "Istus . . . has relatively few faithful devotees." And on p 64 we're told that Boccob is "called the Uncaring . . . Whether or not any worship or serve him seems of no importance to him."

Iuz may want more worship to boost his power. That doesn't imply that he has less worship than Incabulos, because nothing in the Greyhawk material implies that the sole or even primary determinant of power is worship.

 

[Maxperson]

@Maxperson, @Voadam has already posted upthread (over two or three posts) about the Greyhawk logic of Quasi-deities, Hero-deities, Demigods, and similar. In various places including the GH material Gygax also uses the term "godling".

There is a clear concept, in Gygax's mind and presented as part of this imagined world, that powerful mortal or quasi-mortal beings (like a cambion) can ascend to god hood. First they start as quasi-deities/hero-deities/godlings. Perhaps Iuz was always this because of his inheritance both as a cambion and from Iggwilv? Then the next stage is demigod.

There is no implication that you can jump straight to the same sort of power as Boccob just by having more worshippers. Nor is there any implication that Boccob's power is a result of having worshippers. Or any other greater god, for that matter. In fact we're told (on p 62 of the boxed set campaign guide) that "In general, the Greater gods are too far removed from the world to have much to do with humanity, and while they are worshipped, few people hold them as patrons." On p 70, we're told that "Istus . . . has relatively few faithful devotees." And on p 64 we're told that Boccob is "called the Uncaring . . . Whether or not any worship or serve him seems of no importance to him."

Iuz may want more worship to boost his power. That doesn't imply that he has less worship than Incabulos, because nothing in the Greyhawk material implies that the sole or even primary determinant of power is worship.

Okay. So Greyhawk does things differently. There's still no indication that Iuz had huge masses of worshippers other than "many clerics" which doesn't mean much, because clerics are rare enough that many is still not all that many.

 

[Faolyn]

If lack of worshippers isn't the reason why he is weaker, then why is he bothering to build up his empire in such a way that only he is worshipped? It wouldn't matter if he weren't the only one if numbers of worshippers didn't have a huge impact on his power.

Your second sentence does in fact suggest that he is weaker than Nerull or Incabulos because of numbers of his lack of followers, and that in turn suggests that he doesn't yet have that many in his own empire.

Don't forget things like simple pride. I imagine that Iuz is a narcissist whose fragile ego would be damaged if there were any other gods being worshiped in his realm.

And don't forget, D&D doesn't have a set level of how many worshipers are required to maintain a level of godliness. Or what any one worshiper "gives" to the god. It could be that anyone even paying lip service is enough to feed a god, but a devout worshiper is worth ten times that amount.

 

[Maxperson]

Don't forget things like simple pride. I imagine that Iuz is a narcissist whose fragile ego would be damaged if there were any other gods being worshiped in his realm.

And don't forget, D&D doesn't have a set level of how many worshipers are required to maintain a level of godliness. Or what any one worshiper "gives" to the god. It could be that anyone even paying lip service is enough to feed a god, but a devout worshiper is worth ten times that amount.

This is from the 3e Deities & Demigods.

"A demigod has anywhere from a few hundred to a few thousand devoted mortal worshipers and may receive veneration or respect from many more."

"Lesser deities have anywhere from a few thousand to tens of thousands of worshipers and control larger godly realms than demigods."

"These entities are called intermediate deities. They have hundreds of thousands of mortal worshipers and control larger godly realms than demigods or lesser deities."

"Called greater deities, these entities may have millions of mortal worshipers, and they command respect even among other deities."

I'm pretty sure I saw something along these lines in 2e as well.

 

[Faolyn]

This is from the 3e Deities & Demigods.

"A demigod has anywhere from a few hundred to a few thousand devoted mortal worshipers and may receive veneration or respect from many more."

Those aren't set numbers. A few thousand can be anywhere from two to five thousand, and those are only devoted worshipers. We still don't know how many worshipers are required to "feed" the god.