D&D General The Role and Purpose of Evil Gods

[Maxperson]

Those aren't set numbers. A few thousand can be anywhere from two to five thousand, and those are only devoted worshipers. We still don't know how many worshipers are required to "feed" the god.

It's a pretty narrow ballpark. Enough to let us know what the gods need to be in each rank.

 

[Faolyn]

It's a pretty narrow ballpark. Enough to let us know what the gods need to be in each rank.

In that case, I think you need to decide what the population of his Empire is. I say decide because every page I go to lists a different population. But they're all at least in the tens of thousands (and one site puts it at 700,000). More than enough for him to have a demigod-level of worshipers, even if most people aren't devout. Probably more than enough for him to have a higher-level of godhood, although I read one forum post on Canonfire that suggested that if he became a more powerful deity he wouldn't be able to remain on the prime.

 

[Maxperson]

In that case, I think you need to decide what the population of his Empire is. I say decide because every page I go to lists a different population. But they're all at least in the tens of thousands (and one site puts it at 700,000). More than enough for him to have a demigod-level of worshipers, even if most people aren't devout. Probably more than enough for him to have a higher-level of godhood, although I read one forum post on Canonfire that suggested that if he became a more powerful deity he wouldn't be able to remain on the prime.

I've never disputed that he would have a demigod level of worshippers(a few hundred to a few thousand). I've been disputing the unfounded assumption that he has most or all of the empire, which would make him an intermediate god.

 

[Faolyn]

I've never disputed that he would have a demigod level of worshippers(a few hundred to a few thousand). I've been disputing the unfounded assumption that he has most or all of the empire, which would make him an intermediate god.

Sure. But again, it may not be enough to have a full X number of worshipers. Otherwise, there's the possibility that some gods would always be switching between one level and another of divinity as they gain and lose more worshipers ("ooh, sorry Bob, you can't get 7th-level spells today; a couple of pilgrims got et by a dragon and your god isn't powerful enough anymore to grant you those spells"). It may be the case (and I'd wager it is) that you'd need that level of worshipers for a significant amount of time. Maybe hundreds of years, or even thousands.

So Iuz may have enough worshipers right now to make him a lesser or intermediate god (if that's what he wants, but right now he's a very big fish in a very small pond), but he hasn't had them for long enough.

 

[Maxperson]

Sure. But again, it may not be enough to have a full X number of worshipers. Otherwise, there's the possibility that some gods would always be switching between one level and another of divinity as they gain and lose more worshipers ("ooh, sorry Bob, you can't get 7th-level spells today; a couple of pilgrims got et by a dragon and your god isn't powerful enough anymore to grant you those spells"). It may be the case (and I'd wager it is) that you'd need that level of worshipers for a significant amount of time. Maybe hundreds of years, or even thousands.

They do switch power levels, though. That's one reason why gods who war against other gods have their worshippers go after the other guy's worshippers. As they lose worshippers, they dwindle in power until they fade into the astral plane as dead gods.

So Iuz may have enough worshipers right now to make him a lesser or intermediate god (if that's what he wants, but right now he's a very big fish in a very small pond), but he hasn't had them for long enough.

It's not like he can stop the power from flowing. If he has enough followers to be a lesser or intermediate god, he IS a lesser or intermediate god. The time factor that is being mentioned is him trying to gain a large enough following to rise in power.

 

[Helldritch]

The new Minsc and Boo book shows us the relative power level between a true god and an archfiend. Bhaal's avatars(slivers of his power) are CR 24, putting a mere sliver of a god's power on par with the mightiest of the Demon Lords and Archdevils.

Is it any good? I have ponder if I should buy it....

 

[Maxperson]

Is it any good? I have ponder if I should buy it....

It's good. I bought it because I don't have time to do as much prep as I like, so the premade NPC villains, new monsters, and societies to be patrons for PCs is very valuable to me. Other than the monsters, though, there's not a lot that a creative DM with time truly needs.

 

[Chaosmancer]

No. It says that he makes 2 avatars and stats them both at CR 24. Maybe things have changed for 5e on this.

What do you mean "maybe things have changed for 5e on this"? Didn't you just say this was coming from a brand new 5e book featuring Minsc and Boo?

Edit: AH, thank you @Mirtek . That explains a lot about what is going on. A book set in the past, and then these three gods being reduced to mortals with the world of Toril as their home Plane. This is very interesting, especially with how these beings seem to be being treated.

Perkins both says they aren't as powerful as gods, refers to them as mortals who can be killed, and then says "Bane is the God of Tyranny". It seems like Bane, Bhaal, and Myrkul are being treated exactly how I would imagine the Archfiends being treated if they made it to the mortal plane, minus the actual apocalypse it would mean.

Noting the mortal "gods" can still grant powers. Even though they are no longer "as powerful as gods" but are gods.

Being on the Appendix B list does not guarantee that you can grant spells. Some of them are demigod quasi-deities who cannot. And no, those Eberron entries do not qualify as, "Demigods, Titans or Vestiges."

I never said that being in Appendix B means that you are guaranteed to be able to grant spells. None of them are listed as Demigods. I also never said that the four I pointed out were "Demigods, Titans or Vestiges". I said that they were potentially the "Quasi-Divine Entities" that were being mentioned, since there are no listed Demigods, titans or vestiges.

And you're saying that the three defined quasi-deities don't apply to the Eberron ancestors. Why are you able to add to the DMG definitions, but not me?

I'm not adding to the DMG definition. I'm pointing out that Eberron doesn't fit the standard model, but might have been referenced by the background you keep quoting. Read the Rising from the Last War book, and you'll get an entire section on how the Eberron system works.

What you are trying to do is say that Demigods work differently than Demigods are stated to work, and that anything that used to be a Demigod must still be a demigod, even though none of them are listed as demigods. That isn't adding to the category, that is saying that the categories are wrong because it isn't what you like.

In the absence of information to the contrary(and there is no contrary information in 5e), older edition lore is relevant.

And we have information to the contrary. The Entry on the Red Knight, the Entry on demigods, ect.

You're emphasizing a nothing burger. "Considerable power" can be that of a deva or planetar. You need not be a god capable of granting spells to have "considerable power."

Not everything gained has to be super powers.

So, you seem to have been putting forth that "being an Exarch" is the reason that the Red Knight can do things that a Demigod can't do, despite you insisting that she is a Demigod. Yet, when I point out that Exarchs get no additional powers from being an Exarch... you decide to focus on something I didn't say.

I'm getting a little tired of your strawmen. They gain no powers, no new abilities, so no, being an Exarch doesn't allow The Red Knight to do things that she otherwise couldn't do. Because the rules stated that she has no abilities from being an Exarch.

LOL No.......you didn't. You quoted that they are a conduit to the higher power, not that they grant spells. As a conduit to Tempus(the higher power), Tempus would be the ones granting spells.

Another strawman. I not only quoted the text, I bolded the text. They aren't a conduit to the higher power. The are the conduit to the ATTENTION of a Higher God. How do you get the attention of a god? Is it by granting spells? Does it have anything at all to do with granting spells? No. You get the attention of a god by praying. If the Red Knight was a demigod in 5e, she could not hear prayers. If she cannot hear prayers, how can she be the conduit from mortals to the ATTENTION of a Higher God?

And no, the answer isn't "Tempus grants the spells" because that has nothing to do with it.

Doesn't matter it uses the word. She still serves that role. She has altars to Tempus in her temples for heaven's sake. You don't do that for a higher god that you are not in service to.

She does not seem to serve that role, since that role is never mentioned in anyway, shape or form in 5e materials. And, do some research into... literally any polytheistic religion. Greek, Roman, Egyptian, Hindu, just go ahead and pick one.

You will find that many times a temple dedicated to a god or goddess also has an altar devoted to a related god or goddess. How might the Red Knight (Goddess of Strategy in Battle) be related to Tempus (The God of War)? I'm sure if you look really closely you might be able to figure it out.

 

[Faolyn]

They do switch power levels, though. That's one reason why gods who war against other gods have their worshippers go after the other guy's worshippers. As they lose worshippers, they dwindle in power until they fade into the astral plane as dead gods.

But not instantly. It's not you lose one worshiper and bam you're a lesser god instead of an intermediate one. Unless you really want this to be that crunchy. Which I for one don't.

It's not like he can stop the power from flowing. If he has enough followers to be a lesser or intermediate god, he IS a lesser or intermediate god. The time factor that is being mentioned is him trying to gain a large enough following to rise in power.

He can't stop people from worshiping him (or paying lip service), but does he have to accept the power? Or can he just the worship slide on by? Again, if he doesn't want to achieve a higher state of divinity, which is an if--but again, I find sources that say that gods can't enter the Prime without an avatar (I think mostly because doing so would anger every other god), but Iuz lives on the Prime, body and soul. Any stronger and he might get all the other gods to attack him.

Again, for all we know if could take X number of worshipers over Y time period to achieve the next level of godhood, and he hasn't had that yet. It could also be that other gods are working against him and preventing him from achieving a higher rank. He has a lot of enemies, after all. It could also be that ranks in godhood aren't as cut and dried as "demigods have a few hundred to a few thousand worshipers" and there could very well be other requirements.

Or it could just be another D&D mistake, since the DMG states demigods don't grant spells (to mortal clerics) but Iuz does, and offers the Death domain.

Or heck, maybe he's actually a higher-ranking god than he thinks he is, but since his home plane is the Prime, and specifically to one part of one world in the Prime, and not one of the outer planes with the other gods, he thinks he's actually weak.

So all in all, I think it hardly matters if Iuz has one worshiper or one thousand worshipers or one hundred thousand worshipers and is also a demigod who grants spells. The only think that matters is how you want to use him in your game.

 

[pemerton]

This is from the 3e Deities & Demigods.

"A demigod has anywhere from a few hundred to a few thousand devoted mortal worshipers and may receive veneration or respect from many more."

"Lesser deities have anywhere from a few thousand to tens of thousands of worshipers and control larger godly realms than demigods."

"These entities are called intermediate deities. They have hundreds of thousands of mortal worshipers and control larger godly realms than demigods or lesser deities."

"Called greater deities, these entities may have millions of mortal worshipers, and they command respect even among other deities."

I'm pretty sure I saw something along these lines in 2e as well.

OK. How does these have any bearing on material that was written by Gygax and published in the early 80s, then built on in the later 80s and then again by the Living Greyhawk Gazetteer published before the work you're quoting?

Okay. So Greyhawk does things differently.

And here's the answer to my question - it doesn't!

I've never disputed that he would have a demigod level of worshippers(a few hundred to a few thousand). I've been disputing the unfounded assumption that he has most or all of the empire, which would make him an intermediate god.

And now you're back to ignoring your own point, just quoted.

Boccob is a greater god. He clearly does not have millions of mortal worshippers. It's clear that St Cuthbert has far more worshippers than Boccob. That "rule" you've quoted from the 3E DDG is irrelevant to making sense of the Greyhawk published material. It's just something that someone wrote, and that WotC published in 2002, because they liked the idea of it.

It's not like he can stop the power from flowing. If he has enough followers to be a lesser or intermediate god, he IS a lesser or intermediate god. The time factor that is being mentioned is him trying to gain a large enough following to rise in power.

And now you're just making stuff up again. Everything in the GH materials is more consistent with what @Faolyn has said - ie that power may need a certain amount of worship for a certain amount of time - in order to yield increased divine status.

Of course you're allowed to make up whatever stuff you like. But it's frustrating, in a discussion of the content of certain books - in this case Greyhawk - when you keep asserting that they say things that they don't!

It is simply wrong, from a reading of the GM materials, to infer that Iuz's status as a demigod correlates in some straightforward fashion to his level of worship.