D&D General The Role and Purpose of Evil Gods

Faolyn

(she/her)
For what it's worth, I looked up Iuz and found info on the Canonfire forums that suggests that Iuz gained his demi-divinity at least in part by using "soul husks," not just through worship. So however many people actually worship him in a way that feeds him--assuming that Greyhawk gods need prayer to stay alive and to grow (I dunno), those husks take up at least part of the load.
 

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Maxperson

Morkus from Orkus
The new Minsc and Boo book shows us the relative power level between a true god and an archfiend. Bhaal's avatars(slivers of his power) are CR 24, putting a mere sliver of a god's power on par with the mightiest of the Demon Lords and Archdevils.
 

Chaosmancer

Legend
Fir what it's worth I believe that the vast majority of former demigods have been promoted to gods just because 5e demoted the term demigod.

The were fully functional spell-granting deities before and the designers just wanted to keep them that way.

For some reason they also wanted to redefine the term demigod in D&D (probably to make it match the common understanding of the word) and that meant they had to promote most former demigods

Exactly what I've been saying, and I fully agree that it is very likely they wanted to match the common understanding. Probably part of the push for "natural language"
 

Mirtek

Hero
The new Minsc and Boo book shows us the relative power level between a true god and an archfiend. Bhaal's avatars(slivers of his power) are CR 24, putting a mere sliver of a god's power on par with the mightiest of the Demon Lords and Archdevils.
Isn't that avatar now actually the true Bhaal? IIRC the last news on the Dead Three was that they made some deal with Ao to be reduced to demigod power and becoming killable in the process, but in return they were allowed to directly meddle with the mortal coil in a way now forbidden to full fledged deities

Also Tiamat in all her divine glory is a CR30, so not that far above the mightiest archfiends (and further indicating that the CR24 'avatar' is the current actual rest of Bhaal)
 

Chaosmancer

Legend
Demigod is the same as it was. And if you're only example is in Eberron, it fails. All we know is that there are quasi-deities on that list and that the DM has to decide which they are. How is he going to decide. If he's only 5e, probably abitrarily. If he's familiar with past editions, he'll probably reason that prior demigods are still demigods.

Demigods in 5e cannot answer prayers and cannot grant spells. That is not the same as it was. The Eberron stuff is simply attempting to highlight that there is more than one explanation for the Acolyte text. You seem to be of the opinion that the only possible reasoning for it is secret demigods that you need to read older sourcebooks to discover their true natures. I just can't accept that that is the only possible explanation when we literally have four entries in appendix B that are not gods or pantheons, and therefore would qualify for a third category of "quasi-divine beings"

We have the best equipment. Take the equipment away and all the Marines in the America lose to armed rabble. An equivalent to the Marines would be if the Undying Court got it's power from lots of powerful magic items.

And picking apart my analogy serves what purpose again? Oh right, none at all except trying to continue pushing a false narrative. To repeat myself. If you keep insisting on "this single member of the court is CR 9" as some metric to measure the power of the entire court working in unison, despite that blatantly misrepresenting their power, then you are arguing in bad faith. There is nothing else to say to that. You are arguing in bad faith, because the entire point of the Court is that they are working in unison and the sum is greater than the parts.

And you have yet to prove that the Undying Court is on the list in any capacity. They are not a greater god. they are not a lesser god. They are not a quasi-deity. Yet they are there. So either they don't belong on that list and they are a mistake, or there are beings that don't fit the limited descriptions of divine powers in the DMG and yet still fall into those categories. Like demigods that ascend from mortal to demigod.

You choose? This is a true dichotomy. Either those limited descriptions in the DMG are all that falls into those categories or they are not.

No, it isn't a dichotomy. Yes, the list isn't exhaustive, but "demigod" is on the list. You are literally saying that how the DMG defines Demigod doesn't apply to demigods, because in older editions the definition was different. That isn't how things work.

You do know that the clerics would be entirely unaware that she isn't granting those spells, right? As well as her worshippers. And he is not doing all the work. She does her exarch work. Here, since apparently you've ignored what I said and are claiming that all she does is deliver messages, I'll link exarch for you.............................again.


I don't think you linked this before, and reading through it, I think you maybe didn't read this closely. First of all, I will point out that all of the information in that article is from either the Forgotten Realms Campaign Guide in 2008 or the Divine Power book in 2009. 5e, to remind you, was released in 2014. This is all 4e information, none of it is from 5e.

Secondly, I would like to draw your attention to that text explicitly cited from Divine Power, (emphasis mine):

An exarch can be any Chosen, Demigod, Saint, archangel, or being of power that pledges their service to a particular Deity. The exarch gains no additional powers from this relationship as they are normally of considerable power already to earn the position.

To repeat: An Exarch gains no additional powers from becoming an Exarch. Zero. Nada. Nothing.

This, to me, explains A LOT about the changes we see in the 5e Sword Coast Guide. WoTC changed the definition of Demigod, to more closely resemble the common understanding and move away from the 2e and 3.5 understandings of the terms. However, this left them a bunch of figures that had become relatively important in the realms, that people wanted to see more of , but that no longer could fulfil their role. So, they made them Lesser Gods instead of Demigods. Not because it increases their power, but because the definitions changed. And they didn't have to change the Exarch information at all, because being an Exarch never came with additional abilities.

And, to quote the other relevant text "but are more often simply conduits from the mortal world to the attention of the higher gods." The entire point was to take prayers and pass them on to the more powerful Gods, directing their attention where it needed to be. In 5e, that means that an Exarch has to be either some undefined thing that isn't on the list because it doesn't match up with anything, or they have to be a lesser god. Because Lesser Gods can hear prayers, and Quasi-Divine Beings, can't.

Nothing in her write up says anything about answering prayers or granting spells. It does show that she serves Tempus, though. In her temples are altars to Tempus.

And yet, as I literally just quoted. That is the job of an Exarch.

Which, actually re-reading the entry... She isn't even an Exarch anymore. The term "Exarch" never appears in the Sword Coast Guide. She just has altars to Tempus in her Temples. Nothing even says that Tempus grants the spells or answers prayers directed at her. So, yeah, the Red Knight is a full Lesser Diety who just respects and works with Tempus according to all of the 5e lore written about her.

Fear does not equate to worship. Not even close to 50% worships him.

Find me a quote that proves that. Because so far it seems that is your opinion, and nothing more.
 

Chaosmancer

Legend
The new Minsc and Boo book shows us the relative power level between a true god and an archfiend. Bhaal's avatars(slivers of his power) are CR 24, putting a mere sliver of a god's power on par with the mightiest of the Demon Lords and Archdevils.

And Tiamat's true and real form, as I have been told, is CR 30. For a full god of dragons.

CR isn't necessarily seeming to be a good measure these days.
 

Maxperson

Morkus from Orkus
Isn't that avatar now actually the true Bhaal? IIRC the last news on the Dead Three was that they made some deal with Ao to be reduced to demigod power and becoming killable in the process, but in return they were allowed to directly meddle with the mortal coil in a way now forbidden to full fledged deities
No. It says that he makes 2 avatars and stats them both at CR 24. Maybe things have changed for 5e on this.
Also Tiamat in all her divine glory is a CR30, so not that far above the mightiest archfiends (and further indicating that the CR24 'avatar' is the current actual rest of Bhaal)
Tiamat was never been a powerful goddess. I think lesser.
 


Mirtek

Hero
A full LESSER goddess. Bhaal has traditionally been a greater god, except for I guess this demigod thing @Mirtek mentioned, but I don't know anything about that.
Actually Bhaal was never a greater deity. At his height he was an intermediate power.

But nevermind that voluntarily becoming a demigod thing, that's the current 5e timeline and after remembering to get the Minsk book from drivethrough I now see that this is set in the past during the time of the first two BG games.

So it's hard to say what those avatars are exactly supposed to be. Being dead at that time the only avatars that appeared where the occasional Bhaalspawn transforming into one after having collected enough power from his siblings highlander style.

Or those are supposed to go further back and show what he manifested when he was still an active power. In this case the whole order of going through the ravager only to become the slayer after making a kill seems strange.

About their current "demigod" existane:
 

Maxperson

Morkus from Orkus
Demigods in 5e cannot answer prayers and cannot grant spells. That is not the same as it was. The Eberron stuff is simply attempting to highlight that there is more than one explanation for the Acolyte text. You seem to be of the opinion that the only possible reasoning for it is secret demigods that you need to read older sourcebooks to discover their true natures. I just can't accept that that is the only possible explanation when we literally have four entries in appendix B that are not gods or pantheons, and therefore would qualify for a third category of "quasi-divine beings"
Being on the Appendix B list does not guarantee that you can grant spells. Some of them are demigod quasi-deities who cannot. And no, those Eberron entries do not qualify as, "Demigods, Titans or Vestiges."
No, it isn't a dichotomy. Yes, the list isn't exhaustive, but "demigod" is on the list. You are literally saying that how the DMG defines Demigod doesn't apply to demigods, because in older editions the definition was different. That isn't how things work.
And you're saying that the three defined quasi-deities don't apply to the Eberron ancestors. Why are you able to add to the DMG definitions, but not me?
I don't think you linked this before, and reading through it, I think you maybe didn't read this closely. First of all, I will point out that all of the information in that article is from either the Forgotten Realms Campaign Guide in 2008 or the Divine Power book in 2009. 5e, to remind you, was released in 2014. This is all 4e information, none of it is from 5e.
In the absence of information to the contrary(and there is no contrary information in 5e), older edition lore is relevant.
Secondly, I would like to draw your attention to that text explicitly cited from Divine Power, (emphasis mine):
You're emphasizing a nothing burger. "Considerable power" can be that of a deva or planetar. You need not be a god capable of granting spells to have "considerable power."
To repeat: An Exarch gains no additional powers from becoming an Exarch. Zero. Nada. Nothing.
Not everything gained has to be super powers.
And yet, as I literally just quoted. That is the job of an Exarch.
LOL No.......you didn't. You quoted that they are a conduit to the higher power, not that they grant spells. As a conduit to Tempus(the higher power), Tempus would be the ones granting spells. ;)
Which, actually re-reading the entry... She isn't even an Exarch anymore. The term "Exarch" never appears in the Sword Coast Guide. She just has altars to Tempus in her Temples. Nothing even says that Tempus grants the spells or answers prayers directed at her. So, yeah, the Red Knight is a full Lesser Diety who just respects and works with Tempus according to all of the 5e lore written about her.
Doesn't matter it uses the word. She still serves that role. She has altars to Tempus in her temples for heaven's sake. You don't do that for a higher god that you are not in service to.
 

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