D&D 5E FeeFiFoFum *splat* goes the giants

[Oofta]

an 11th level wizard... with a what for AC? 11?!? I mean at least give them mage armor... you know the spell they can cast, last all day and not have to concentrate on for the cost of the lowest spell slot... I mean most damaging 1st level spells are out done by cantrips and if it saves 1 shield spell it is worth it.

That assumes a level of planning an forethought that some if my players lack.
It's also fairly typical for PCs that don't wear heavy armor and shields.

One of my assumptions is that the guidelines are for casual players that are not particularly optimized.

 

[ad_hoc]

I think including a side bar or two that helps would be better then doing nothing...

example: If your party has a + magic item to hit remember they are hitting like a party multi levels (+1 prof) higher would. a +3 sword on a 3rd level character makes them hit as often as a 20th level PC with no items. Magic that goes to defense (like AC) does the oppisite it makes the monster hit as if they had LESS prof. a 5th level party with 4 PCs with 2 +2 weapons and all 4 having atleast 1 +1 to AC will fight more like a 9th-10th level party BUT they wont have the HP so it will make the dice more swingy.

example2: If your party rolls for stats (remember that is the default) having PCs with much higher or lower stats allows them to hit or be hit more or less often. a good rule of thumb is if the PCs have X more then the standard array add 1 to there level if they have X less then the standard subtract 1. if some are higher and some

example 3: some feats are more powerful in a hit harder and some are more powerful by giving more options, if you see a PC has regularly in play been able to ahndle harder and harder monsters considering counting the whole party as one level higher.

Just a note. Both rolling and standard array are the default.

Point buy is a variant.

 

[HammerMan]

Just a note. Both rolling and standard array are the default.

Point buy is a variant.

okay, I have been using homebrew stuff so long I didn't remember that.

 

[Stalker0]

One of my assumptions is that the guidelines are for casual players that are not particularly optimized.

Once again I think its a matter of degrees. For 1st level players, of course, could be total newbs. For 5th level players....should have some experience, but could still be newish.

11th level? I think its pretty reasonable to assume some basic proficiency at this point (+4 proficiency in fact, haha . We aren't talking min/maxing here, we are talking about using the cheapest and longest lasting protection spell in the game, one of the most iconic dnd spells in existence. If an 11th level wizard is too casual for that, I don't know how they are doing with all of the other spells they have.

 

[Stalker0]

I think including a side bar or two that helps would be better then doing nothing...

example: If your party has a + magic item to hit remember they are hitting like a party multi levels (+1 prof) higher would. a +3 sword on a 3rd level character makes them hit as often as a 20th level PC with no items.

Whoa whoa whoa.... this example is a bit disingenous

A 20th level PC fighting class is either got:

1) 4 attacks (fighter)
2) 2 attacks, rage, and big brutal critical (barb)
3) 10d6 SA (rogue)
4) 3d6 - 5d6 smites (paladin)

etc etc

Quick Example

An 11th level fighter (str 20) with longsword and dueling for example is going to have DPR = 17.925, assuming a 45% chance to hit + 5% chance to crit.

A 3rd level fighter (Str 18) with the same and a +3 longsword has DPR = 6.975.... 45% chance to hit + 5% chance to crit (the +3 to hit from the longsword is cancelled by the extra +1 from strength and +2 proficiency the 11th level fighter has).

11th level fighter still does 2.5x the damage. That +3 sword is very solid, and of course against monsters that are resistance to non-magic its even a bigger deal. But at no point is this guy competing with an 11th level fighter on raw damage, let alone a 20th level one.

 

[Oofta]

Once again I think its a matter of degrees. For 1st level players, of course, could be total newbs. For 5th level players....should have some experience, but could still be newish.

11th level? I think its pretty reasonable to assume some basic proficiency at this point (+4 proficiency in fact, haha . We aren't talking min/maxing here, we are talking about using the cheapest and longest lasting protection spell in the game, one of the most iconic dnd spells in existence. If an 11th level wizard is too casual for that, I don't know how they are doing with all of the other spells they have.

I just don't think it makes much difference if the target has a 16 AC or a couple higher. I don't assume people are only under threat for 8 hour days, they are not always prepped for combat. I don't assume the wizard will be able to cast shield. Or just switch classes. Assuming no magic armor, a rogue would have a few more HP but AC would only be 17 if they maxed out dex which I don't think is a valid assumption. Ultimately it doesn't make a huge difference because in the third round 1 hit took the target to zero with a fair amount of damage left over.

But I also think you overestimate how effective people are at building PCs. Without guidance by people who understand how to optimize even a little, people don't always make good choices.

 

[Mort]

But I also think you overestimate how effective people are at building PCs. Without guidance by people who understand how to optimize even a little, people don't always make good choices.

The internet is the great equalizer on that - especially youtube videos. I've seen kids that barely know what a d20 looks like but they sure know that GWM and PAM is awesome for a fighter (and how to build around them)!

 

[Oofta]

The internet is the great equalizer on that - especially youtube videos. I've seen kids that barely know what a d20 looks like but they sure know that GWM and PAM is awesome for a fighter (and how to build around them)!

Most newbies I've played with don't do that. I think people underestimate how many people just look at this as a casual game, spend the minimum amount of time reading the rules and just go for it. Yes, even after getting to level 11. A lot of people just don't care about optimization.

 

[TheAlkaizer]

A lot of people just don't care about optimization.

That's also my experience. Most players I've DMed for, veterans or newcomers, had no interest in optimizing. They focused on making choices that made sense for the character they had in mind. They are concerned about making bad choices though.

 

[ad_hoc]

Most newbies I've played with don't do that. I think people underestimate how many people just look at this as a casual game, spend the minimum amount of time reading the rules and just go for it. Yes, even after getting to level 11. A lot of people just don't care about optimization.

Yep. The people at my table ask me if a decision they are making will work the way they think it works but don't care about being the most powerful.

Or at most they ask me if they're going to have big problems if they go a certain way. Eg. "If I take eldritch blast as my only attack cantrip will that be fine?" And then I remind them that they get disadvantage in melee and let them decide if they want to take another one.