D&D General The Role and Purpose of Evil Gods

[Maxperson]

And what is more likely: that the 5e designers intended everyone using 5e to play Greyhawk games to retcon all their games so that Iuz no longer has clerics? Or that there was an editing error?

So now we need two screw ups for you guys to be right. There needs to be an error in the PHB AND now also in the DMG.

 

[Voadam]

Iuz as a 5e Demigod can fit into the definitions of 5e demigods, but it is some work.

5e Demigods can ascend and become full gods. If you consider Grazz't a god in 5e then Iuz is a demigod under the Quasi-deity sidebar definition and he can ascend to full god status who grants spells to clerics. In GH lore that is my understanding of what Iuz did, coming into older edition demigod deity power with his own clerics.

In 5e this would put him as an ascended Lesser God Demigod, similar to Greek Heracles and Dionysus, while most 5e demigods are mortal bigger than life heroic people like Theseus and Perseus and are classified as quasi-deities who do not hear prayers.

Zagyg however would require additions to his story to be called a 5e demigod as there is no indication that he comes from divine parents, he just did a big magic ritual to ascend to become a god.

Grazz't brings us back to the demons and evil gods split.

5e in the DMG makes the distinction of gods who grant cleric spells and non-gods (quasi-deities) who do not.

The 5e MM is not entirely clear on the status of things like demon lords. Page 51: "The chaotic power of the Abyss rewards demons of particular ruthlessness and ingenuity with a dark blessing, transforming them into unique fiends whose power can rival the gods." The phrasing can rival the gods implies they are not gods themselves, but does not say so explicitly.

Lolth in the 5e MM is described as a goddess who became a demon lord. It does not specify whether she is no longer a goddess or whether she grants spells to clerics, but it does call her the matron of drow and refers to her priestesses, her faithful, and her followers.

The 5e DMG page 12 mentions fiends as non-deity lesser spirits who might grant spells under a certain number of "if" conditions.

"If you introduce a monotheistic religion into your campaign, you need to decide whether other gods exist. Even if they don't, other religions can exist side by side with the monotheistic religion. If these religions have clerics with spellcasting ability, their spells might be powered by the one true deity, by lesser spirits who aren't deities (possibly including powerful aberrations, celestials, fey, fiends, or elementals), or simply by their faith."

This seems like the DMG laying down options and not establishing a D&D baseline. Alternatively this could be read as consistent with a baseline that all lesser spirits can grant cleric spells in D&D or that only under these specified conditions can non-deity lesser spirits grant cleric spells and go against the baseline that such non-deities cannot grant clerics spells.

5e seems ambiguous on the status of fiend lords.

 

[Lyxen]

Iuz as a 5e Demigod can fit into the definitions of 5e demigods, but it is some work.

[...]

5e seems ambiguous on the status of fiend lords.

This is a good analysis, I just wanted to add that 5e is flexible by definition, and the DM is key. If you want your Demigod to be able to grant spells because he is special, then he can, and who will tell you, in your campaign, that it is wrong ? Maybe it is a special exception ? Maybe it's a twist of the plot in your campaign, and there are other status that matter about granting spells ? Maybe there is not even a rule, and what the DMG says does not apply to your campaign ?

In any case, degenerating to even the history of settings is rather pointless, as many beings have changed status over time, as pointed out. And maybe some clergies are now devoid of spellcasting through divine means, and faking it through arcane magic if it's a good plot ? Maximum Game Fun should guide us here, because the rules about divinity are not hard and fast anyway.

 

[Faolyn]

They all are on a list of gods that might possibly grant spells, yes. Nothing says that every god on that list absolutely grants spells. We know some of them don't. They just left which ones up to the DM.

No. It's 14 examples of demigods who might potentially have gotten promotions. That's up to the DM, since we know that some on that list cannot cast spells, despite having domains.

OK, here you're just doubling down instead of admitting you were wrong. If you're going to say "the DM can homebrew that they can't grant spells" then there's absolutely no point to this discussion.

All of those gods were demigods in previous editions. They are all now treated as full, spell-granting gods in 5e (if they grant a domain, they can grant spells). Quasi-deities can't grant spells; full gods, whether they're lesser or greater, can. Demigods are half-mortal, half-god, rather than the lowest-ranking god, and as they are a type of quasi-deity, they can't grant spells.

The end.

 

[Maxperson]

OK, here you're just doubling down instead of admitting you were wrong. If you're going to say "the DM can homebrew that they can't grant spells" then there's absolutely no point to this discussion.

All of those gods were demigods in previous editions. They are all now treated as full, spell-granting gods in 5e (if they grant a domain, they can grant spells). Quasi-deities can't grant spells; full gods, whether they're lesser or greater, can. Demigods are half-mortal, half-god, rather than the lowest-ranking god, and as they are a type of quasi-deity, they can't grant spells.

The end.

No need to double down. The DMG says outright that Iuz is a demigod. Hence quasi-deity.

 

[Maxperson]

Iuz as a 5e Demigod can fit into the definitions of 5e demigods, but it is some work.

5e Demigods can ascend and become full gods. If you consider Grazz't a god in 5e then Iuz is a demigod under the Quasi-deity sidebar definition and he can ascend to full god status who grants spells to clerics. In GH lore that is my understanding of what Iuz did, coming into older edition demigod deity power with his own clerics.

In 5e this would put him as an ascended Lesser God Demigod, similar to Greek Heracles and Dionysus, while most 5e demigods are mortal bigger than life heroic people like Theseus and Perseus and are classified as quasi-deities who do not hear prayers.

I think this is a pretty big stretch. 5e doesn't have demigod lesser gods. They have demigods and lesser gods as separate categories. A demigod who ascends becomes a lesser god is no longer a demigod. Iuz in 5e is still a demigod and therefore a quasi-deity.

As a cambion, Iuz does fit the 5e definition of demigod if you view Grazz't as a god, which he was back in 1e.

 

[Voadam]

This is a good analysis, I just wanted to add that 5e is flexible by definition, and the DM is key. If you want your Demigod to be able to grant spells because he is special, then he can, and who will tell you, in your campaign, that it is wrong ? Maybe it is a special exception ? Maybe it's a twist of the plot in your campaign, and there are other status that matter about granting spells ? Maybe there is not even a rule, and what the DMG says does not apply to your campaign ?

I am a big fan of the DMG offering different incompatible cosmological options and having advice for the story uses and implications of different setups.

Gods being the exclusive source of clerical magic is a neat option that can show hard divisions of gods and other beings.

Fiend lords being a mix of gods like Lolth who can grant clerical spells, and non-god specific other demon lords is a neat setup showing the difference of the status of god and demon lord as separate things that can apply to the same being.

Having divine power be something clerics tap into and the exact worship subject be flexible/not matter (forces, philosophy, lesser spirits, dragons, ancestors, hero-worship) opens up lots of neat D&D story options like clerics powered by false gods or significant heresies.

There is a difference between presenting options and setting up baseline setups for D&D. Rule zero has always applied in every edition, the editions have varied on what they consider their baselines and official options.

The quasi-deity sidebar is a weird specificity among a bunch of options, and serves to create conflicting terminology with stuff from D&D's past. It is not phrased as an option, but as a baseline 5e definition. It creates weird situations when interacting with other options like forces and lesser spirits being an OK source of clerical power. I think it would have been better to leave unstated whether quasi-deities can grant clerical spells, or to present them not granting spells as one option instead of unequivocally stating in the DMG that they do not.

 

[Voadam]

A demigod who ascends becomes a lesser god is no longer a demigod.

A demigod who ascends is still the child of a god and a mortal and so fits the 5e DMG definition of a demigod. A demigod who ascends is now a full god who has domains and grants cleric spells and not a quasi-deity who does not grant cleric spells.

Two different ways to read the same text about demigods as being mixed divine mortal heritage beings who are not gods but can ascend and be gods.

 

[Faolyn]

No need to double down. The DMG says outright that Iuz is a demigod. Hence quasi-deity.

And also specifically says he grants the Death domain, which means he does grant spells.

 

[Maxperson]

And also specifically says he grants the Death domain, which means he does grant spells.

If the DM chooses to promote him, sure. If the DM chooses to go with him as a demigod per the DMG, then Iuz simply renains a quasi-deity in Appendix B that can't grant anything at all.