D&D 5E Wow! No more subraces. The Players Handbook races reformat to the new race format going forward.

[Minigiant]

The only problem is that the facts don't bear out your complaint here. It has worked wonderfully for decades. Your personal declaration of a "mess" doesn't change that.

The overreliance or overemphasis of ability scores has always been a mess in D&D and its primary mechanics. People like it though and they like the feel. So few point out the mess when they recognize it.

But no design team in any edition decided to reduce the emphasis or design with the emphasis in mind. Usually because it makes the game more complex than they want.

 

[Maxperson]

The overreliance or overemphasis of ability scores has always been a mess in D&D and its primary mechanics. People like it though and they like the feel. So few point out the mess when they recognize it.

If it's liked popular, then it's not a "mess." It's just something that a few dislike.

But no design team in any edition decided to reduce the emphasis or design with the emphasis in mind. Usually because it makes the game more complex than they want.

If they wanted to reduce complexity, they would have removed it entirely instead of adding more complexity to the situation. A floating +2, +1 adds more decision points for the player, increasing complexity.

 

[Minigiant]

If it's liked popular, then it's not a "mess." It's just something that a few dislike.

I love the New York Giants. The team is still a mess.

You can like a flawed aspect of product.

If they wanted to reduce complexity, they would have removed it entirely instead of adding more complexity to the situation. A floating +2, +1 adds more decision points for the player, increasing complexity.

You miss why they float.

It's so WOTC doesn't have to make 6 versions of dwarf, elf, orc,halfling. One for each ability score.

That's the complexity. That's why subrace might be gone.

They are reverting to biological to avoid elfbloat and forcing tons of elves in a DMs game to facilitate players..

If the game just has "Elf" and lets you float the +2/1. A DM won't be asked to include Wild Elves in their world so the Player can run a Str based elf barbarian.

 

[Maxperson]

It's so WOTC doesn't have to make 6 versions of dwarf, elf, orc,halfling. One for each ability score.

In 40 years or more of D&D this has never been a requirement, or ever happened. This is not something that WotC is concerned about.

That's the complexity. That's why subrace might be gone.

If that's the reason, subrace can stay. It's a non-argument. They've never had to do or would have done that.

They are reverting to biological to avoid elfbloat and forcing tons of elves in a DMs game to facilitate players..

Elf, the one race that had lots of subraces. Not because of some need to vary stat bonuses, but because of the popularity of the race. You didn't see lots of halfling, dwarf, orc, etc. subraces for each combination of stat bonuses. Never happened.

And, if they think floating bonuses will be a solution for people who like lots of different elves, they are going to be disabused of that notion in the future.

 

[Chaosmancer]

And this is not a counter argument against mine. I'm not arguing that these features would not be beneficial for people with a low dex. I'm saying it would be nonsensical for them to exist for low dex people. Low dex people are sloooooow, not evasion monsters.

Low dexterity people are not slow. They can move 30 ft per round just like everyone else. Your speed is not determined by your dexterity.

 

[Chaosmancer]

Elf, the one race that had lots of subraces. Not because of some need to vary stat bonuses, but because of the popularity of the race. You didn't see lots of halfling, dwarf, orc, etc. subraces for each combination of stat bonuses. Never happened.

And, if they think floating bonuses will be a solution for people who like lots of different elves, they are going to be disabused of that notion in the future.

So, what? The fact that all of those different types of elves just happened to have a multitude of different ASIs to allow for them to be used in multiple different contexts was just a coincidence? We had wild elves who lived in forests and were strong and tough because they were just super popular compared to the non-wild elves who lived in forests and were dexterous and keen-eyed? We needed intelligent and charismatic elves, intelligent and desterous elves, intelligent and wise elves just because elves were super keen and popular?

Come on Max.

 

[Maxperson]

Low dexterity people are not slow. They can move 30 ft per round just like everyone else. Your speed is not determined by your dexterity.

Perhaps you are unaware of the various ways people can be slow. It's not all just how far you can move in a round.

 

[Faolyn]

The problem is that if you do anything to represent greater strength, they would also have a corresponding strength bonus to stat to represent that in the world. Otherwise you end up with "We are stronger, but not actually stronger."

On any particular world, there are rarely more than 5-6 PCs, out of tens or hundreds of millions of NPCs.

There's no reason, therefore, that one halfling (the PC) in all those millions of people can't be as strong or stronger than a goliath. Especially when that halfling still can't use Heavy weapons or lift as much goliath can. The DM can easily have every single NPC halfling have Strength 8 and every single NPC goliath have Strength 16. Having one super-strong halfling doesn't break anything or make goliaths seem weak, especially in a fantasy game.

Practically speaking, Strength is used for one thing: determining your attack and damage bonus. But it gives exactly the same bonus as Dexterity does. A halfling with a Dex of 17 (+3) and a shortsword is going to inflict exactly as much damage as a goliath with a Strength of 17 and a shortsword. But a goliath can use a greatsword, while a halfling can't (at least not without a massive penalty). So even if a halfling has Strength 20 instead of Dex 20, that halfling is still not going to be doing nearly as much damage as a goliath can.

And even if you have racial ASIs, there's still nothing stopping you from having a halfling with a Strength of 20. They just can't have it at 1st level, where a goliath can (if you roll for stats).

Plus, those ASIs make no sense. Goliaths get +2 to Strength. So do githyanki, who are not only shorter than goliaths by a lot, but are described as slender. Centaurs get a +2 Strength, even though they have human arms. Mountain dwarfs are short but get +2 Strength. But loxodon, who are bigger than goliaths and can on average lift 50 pounds with their trunk, get no Strength bonus.

 

[Maxperson]

So, what? The fact that all of those different types of elves just happened to have a multitude of different ASIs to allow for them to be used in multiple different contexts was just a coincidence? We had wild elves who lived in forests and were strong and tough because they were just super popular compared to the non-wild elves who lived in forests and were dexterous and keen-eyed? We needed intelligent and charismatic elves, intelligent and desterous elves, intelligent and wise elves just because elves were super keen and popular?

Nope. Nice Strawman of what I said, though.

 

[UngeheuerLich]

The only problem is that the facts don't bear out your complaint here. It has worked wonderfully for decades. Your personal declaration of a "mess" doesn't change that.

The fuel driven engine also worked out for many decades. Time to say goodby.