D&D 5E Respect Mah Authoritah: Thoughts on DM and Player Authority in 5e

You could simply this concept into something as simple as saying,

"The game functions with the idea that the DM has authority over the game up to the point where player agency/autonomy exists."

Authority defers from agency because authority comes with the responsibilities to maintain a functional gaming experience where the latter is more about the reasonable limits of that authority.
 

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overgeeked

B/X Known World
Agreed. I would frame it this way: there is authority over backstory (histories, maps, cosmology, relationships, etc); over situation (what is happening here and now); over action declaration (which characters are doing what - this follows pretty naturally from situation); and over what happens as a consequence of the declared actions.

All these are parts of the shared fiction - the "narrative", if you like,

I think @Ovinomancer and @Campbell are correct to say that it is not true, in conventional D&D, that the GM has authority over all these things. An analysis of D&D that begins from the premise the players do not have liberty to introduce any old backstory for free (eg the guards example in the OP) to try and conclude the GM has authority over all of the fiction, including all backstory, all situation, and all outcomes, is in my view mistaken.

In 5e D&D, the players exercise some control over backstory via their PC backgrounds. These also influence situation - eg when a Folk Hero meets some peasants then the situation should typically be one of a friendly reception, unless the GM is just running roughshod over this aspect of PC build. How the declared actions are resolved in this sort of case seems like it is not under unilateral GM control either - given the player's contribution to backstory and situation, I would expect some reasonable degree of negotiation and/or consensus in action resolution (eg if the Folk Hero asks the peasants to hide the Macguffin in their haystack) or at least a relatively generous CHA-type check.

In AD&D, there were reaction and loyalty rules to resolve how a NPC responds if asked to do something by a PC. 5e doesn't have exactly those rules, but it does have rules for CHA checks. If a PC asks a NPC to do something, the default GM response in 5e D&D should be to frame an appropriate check. If the request is absurd - eg an out-of-the blue demand that the king relinquish his throne to the PC - then maybe no check is required. But how common are such absurd request? And of course if the request is not out-of-the-blue, or if the PC has leverage (ie is staging a coup or a revolution) then we're back in the terrain where a check seems warranted. (In the real world leaders forfeit their thrones from time-to-time in the fact of coups and revolutions.) GM authority over backstory and situation in these sorts of cases doesn't, as such, licence GM control over what happens next.

In 5e D&D, it is almost always the GM who frames encounters with potentially hostile NPCs/creatures. And who draws the map etc in which these encounters take place. That is authority over backstory and situation. But once the swords are drawn and the spells start flying, the GM is not at liberty just to dictate outcomes. What happens next, in 5e D&D combat, is governed by a host of rules (spread over the character build chapters, the equipment chapters, the spell chapters, the basic resolution/stat check chapter, as well as the stuff under the "Combat" heading). The GM is not at liberty just to ignore all that stuff.

@Ovinomancer has mentioned "secret notes" a few times. (I won't ask him where he picked up that analytical framework!) GM's secret notes work well, in typical D&D play, when they form parts of the backstory that the players, via their action declarations for their PCs, have to work out - secret doors that conceal secret passages, for instance; or the fact that the scullery maid is really the deposed former queen in disguise. Secret backstory might even include unhappy surprises that reveal themselves in the moment of action declaration - there's an anti-magic zone here; the ambassador is wearing a ring of mind-shielding; this sort of aberration is immune to Domination; there's another, invisible, foe who's about to attack your mage from behind for a boatload of damage; etc. But using secret backstory as a device for controlling outcomes seems weak to me, and a sign of poor GMing: examples like this person will never give in to threats, no matter what they are; this person will only provide the information if the PCs take steps A, B, C; or the notorious if the PCs kill the BBEG, then NPC X, the second-in-command, fills the shoes of the deceased and keeps the pre-scripted events moving along.


This is the play mode that is typical of D&D modules from around the second half of the 1980s. There's no doubt a lot of people enjoy it. To the extent that it requires giving the GM control over all outcomes of action declarations, it does make something of a mockery of all those pages and pages of rules! - it did in the AD&D days, and still does in my view.


I can't speak for all the offspring, but in the case of Apocalypse World and Dungeon World this doesn't seem accurate to me. There are very few AW player-side moves that require the player to assert facts about the world or NPCs (the Battlebabe's Visions of Death is one, likewise the Operator's Reputation; and the Savvyhead's Bonefeel gives the player a degree of authority over situation). Seduce/Manipulate, on a 10+, permits a player to oblige the GM to have a NPC go along with the PC's request. The difference from a D&D CHA check is that the odds are clearl spelled out, and the restrictions on what the GM has the NPC say and do if the check succeeds are much clearer. But this is mostly about principles that govern the GM's narration - the GM has more constrained authority over the outcome than in the D&D case, but I don't think there is a fundamental cleavage here: the D&D GM's authority is just as constrained if a player's to hit and damage rolls oblige the GM to drop a NPC's hit points to zero.

AW does have the notion of asking questions and building on the answers, so the GM can initiate or invite player contributions to backstory and situation. I'm not sure if that's what you have in mind?


That's where the clearest discussions are to be found of the different components of the fiction in a RPG, and how authority over them might be allocated in different ways.
The DM has the ability to say no to anything during character creation. Any race, class, subclass, feature, feat, background, arms, armor, gear, spell, etc can be excluded by the DM. Any backstory element can be overwritten by the DM. Up to and including making characters for the players with backstory already written...though that’s exceedingly rare outside of teaching beginners how to play or learning new editions.

During play the DM has control over what the characters know about the world. The DM has explicit control over the outcomes of actions in that they can declare actions automatic successes, automatic failures, or ask for a roll...and determine what the DC is. The DM also is explicitly given control over narrating the outcome of actions in the three-step play loop given in the PHB and DMG.

1. The DM describes the environment.
2. The players describe what they want their characters to do.
3. The DM narrates the results of the characters’ actions.

The DM also has complete control over all NPCs and monsters, including how they act and react.

So when you get down to it, the player doesn’t really have all that much authority in D&D. They can make a character within the confines set by the DM and they can declare the intent of a proposed action, but not the outcome of that action.
 

Maxperson

Morkus from Orkus
Yes.

I didn't say anyone was nasty, nor accuse anyone of a crime. I described these three individuals as bad GMs, and explained why.

Speak for yourself. I play RPGs to play RPGs. If I want to be entertained by someone's story I'll read a book or watch a film.

EDIT: You seem to have thought I was talking about one person. I was talking about three different persons. Each was a bad GM - the first did not adjudicate action declarations fairly, the second wrote a plot where the players had no choice to do anything except end up as patsy-schmucks to the GM's NPC, and the third torpedoed the game when he had ceased to have dominance of the shared fiction.
I agree that those examples make for bad DMs. However, I'm curious about the first example. What made you think that he was playing the kobold incorrectly in order to keep information from you?
 

Maxperson

Morkus from Orkus
It's not black and white like this, sorry, never was in a RPG. The DM usually has a plot that has to be roughly followed. After that, there are many levels of sandboxing and/or railroading, but most games expect some mix of that.
See, I disagree with the bolded portions.

The first bold portion I disagree with, because the DM should never force a plot to be followed. If he comes to the group and asked them to follow it and they agree, that's one thing. Absent that, though, the PCs can do whatever the hell they want. I had a 3e campaign many years ago where the group didn't know what they wanted to do, so before the campaign started I came up with a demon storyline.

After the first session where they encountered some minor demons in a Waterdeep cemetery, they were like, "Demons are dangerous. Let's get the hell out of here." Then one of them was like, "I've always wanted to be a pirate. What if we go south, steal a ship and head to the Pirate isles." So that's what they did. I prepped some stuff in the time it took them to travel south to Amn and they had a pirate campaign. In the mean time the demons went mostly unchecked and almost destroyed the world(the rolls went badly, but not catastrophically) and they heard terrible news and some of their adventures still tangentially touched on the old storyline.

The second bolded portion is similar to the first. If the players don't agree in advance that a railroad is okay, it's never okay. Note, this is not the same as having a linear adventure. Linear =/= railroad.
 

Lyxen

Great Old One
See, I disagree with the bolded portions.

The first bold portion I disagree with, because the DM should never force a plot to be followed. If he comes to the group and asked them to follow it and they agree, that's one thing. Absent that, though, the PCs can do whatever the hell they want. I had a 3e campaign many years ago where the group didn't know what they wanted to do, so before the campaign started I came up with a demon storyline.

After the first session where they encountered some minor demons in a Waterdeep cemetery, they were like, "Demons are dangerous. Let's get the hell out of here." Then one of them was like, "I've always wanted to be a pirate. What if we go south, steal a ship and head to the Pirate isles." So that's what they did. I prepped some stuff in the time it took them to travel south to Amn and they had a pirate campaign. In the mean time the demons went mostly unchecked and almost destroyed the world(the rolls went badly, but not catastrophically) and they heard terrible news and some of their adventures still tangentially touched on the old storyline.

And still you had an overall storyline. Moreover, you might play a very sandboxy game, but most published adventures are not written that way. The DM having a plot that is more or less followed is the standard way of gaming, and even in your case, there was a storyline that influenced what the PCs were doing and that you decided totally on your own with no influence from the PCs are they were not doing anything special about it.

The second bolded portion is similar to the first. If the players don't agree in advance that a railroad is okay, it's never okay.

There is nothing of the kind in the rules, written or otherwise (and if you think there is, prove it). On the contrary, once more if you read the suggestions of Tasha in terms of standard social contract, as the DM directs the campaign, and prepares the game, this is to be respected by the players. After that, there are many different levels of collaboration, but players who purposefully ignore what the DM has prepared for them are rude and wasting his time, and they are the bad players there, it's not the DM who is at fault, or rather there is a collective problem of social contract, which still leaves the DM having worked for basically nothing.

Note, this is not the same as having a linear adventure. Linear =/= railroad.

I fail to see a profound difference there. If the adventure is linear and the PCs purposefully derive from the linearity, some railroading is in order otherwise the game simply crashes. The best/worst example of the kind in modern D&D history is Waterdeep Dragon Heist which just does not work if the PCs don't follow the unique string of ten encounters in order, and it needs railroading if they start going in the wrong direction.

Of course, if it's linea and the PCs follow the string, there is no railroading, but they are still totally following the tracks.
 

Minigiant

Legend
Supporter
See, I disagree with the bolded portions.

The first bold portion I disagree with, because the DM should never force a plot to be followed. If he comes to the group and asked them to follow it and they agree, that's one thing. Absent that, though, the PCs can do whatever the hell they want.

Agree.

The DM doesn't have control of the PCs. They players do. So the "plot" is the one the Players choose to get involved in. The players can choose to be railroaded or stop playing.

Ultimately, the DM who wants to railroad must find players who like or at least agree with his or her train.
 

Maxperson

Morkus from Orkus
And still you had an overall storyline. Moreover, you might play a very sandboxy game, but most published adventures are not written that way. The DM having a plot that is more or less followed is the standard way of gaming, and even in your case, there was a storyline that influenced what the PCs were doing and that you decided totally on your own with no influence from the PCs are they were not doing anything special about it.
Not doing anything special about it? They created it with their choice in Waterdeep. At one point I thought it would be cool to give them a flying ship, so they found a wreck with a spelljamming helm in it. Had they decided to leave Toril and head into space, the campaign would have taken another drastic turn into something else. I react to their choices and actions, not the other way around.
There is nothing of the kind in the rules, written or otherwise (and if you think there is, prove it).
Prove that removal of player agency and invalidation of their choices in order force them to do what I want is bad? Well, that kinda sorta speaks for itself. ;)
On the contrary, once more if you read the suggestions of Tasha in terms of standard social contract, as the DM directs the campaign, and prepares the game, this is to be respected by the players. After that, there are many different levels of collaboration, but players who purposefully ignore what the DM has prepared for them are rude and wasting his time, and they are the bad players there, it's not the DM who is at fault, or rather there is a collective problem of social contract, which still leaves the DM having worked for basically nothing.
So, respect =/= accepting a railroad. Like at all. Not even a little bit. In fact, railroading is specifically disrespecting the players and is a DM violation of the social contract. Unless of course they've agreed to it in session 0 like I said.
I fail to see a profound difference there. If the adventure is linear and the PCs purposefully derive from the linearity, some railroading is in order otherwise the game simply crashes.
This is wrong. The game doesn't crash. It simply shifts direction. The DM can get himself into a huff and crash the game, but if he just reacts to the player's desire for something different, no crash occurs and everyone has fun.

Note, this again assumes that the players didn't agree to play the linear adventure. If they did agree and try to leave, they are being tools. The solution, though, is not railroading. The solution is finding new players.
The best/worst example of the kind in modern D&D history is Waterdeep Dragon Heist which just does not work if the PCs don't follow the unique string of ten encounters in order, and it needs railroading if they start going in the wrong direction.

Of course, if it's linea and the PCs follow the string, there is no railroading, but they are still totally following the tracks.
I don't know that one. I stay away from pre-made adventures that aren't short like the modules of old.
 

Maxperson

Morkus from Orkus
Agree.

The DM doesn't have control of the PCs. They players do. So the "plot" is the one the Players choose to get involved in. The players can choose to be railroaded or stop playing.

Ultimately, the DM who wants to railroad must find players who like or at least agree with his or her train.
Yep. One of my players is a fairly new DM. I run the lion's share of campaigns for my group and have for coming up on 15 years. I need a break once in a while and he offered to DM. He bought one of the 3e pre-made campaign adventures and then before play asked us not to deviate like they do to me. He wasn't sure that he would be able to DM it well enough since he was new. We agreed and hopped on the linear train. That sort of thing is just fine.
 

Minigiant

Legend
Supporter
Yep. One of my players is a fairly new DM. I run the lion's share of campaigns for my group and have for coming up on 15 years. I need a break once in a while and he offered to DM. He bought one of the 3e pre-made campaign adventures and then before play asked us not to deviate like they do to me. He wasn't sure that he would be able to DM it well enough since he was new. We agreed and hopped on the linear train. That sort of thing is just fine.

Yup. Agreeing to sit for a pre-made adventure is a player is agreeing to stay somewhat within the boundaries of the premade and actively engaging with it if it makes any sense.

It's basically having the DM and Players agree to give some authority to a neutral figure.
 

Lyxen

Great Old One
The DM doesn't have control of the PCs. They players do. So the "plot" is the one the Players choose to get involved in. The players can choose to be railroaded or stop playing.

Ultimately, the DM who wants to railroad must find players who like or at least agree with his or her train.

And the players who want to totally disregard what the DM prepares for us can also go and find themselves a new DM who agrees to cater for their specific tastes. It's exactly the same.
 

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