D&D 5E Wow! No more subraces. The Players Handbook races reformat to the new race format going forward.

[UngeheuerLich]

No. This is a blatantly wrong misstatement of my position.

What is your statement then?

A dwarf with 10 Con and an ability to recover health is ok, but a dwarf with 8 in Con is not?
Or 12 vs 10?

Why do you insist that an ability that allows a dwarf to recover health be linked to +2 Con?
That makes no sense at all.

You could just say, you prefer it that way, and that is ok. But your argumentation is flawed.

 

[Scribe]

thank you... I am sure that is better then what I just scribbled at work

So, coming back to this, I looked up the relevant page in the DMG (page 274) and then looked at what a 1st level character is meant to fight as per XGtE (page 90) and we get.

Level 1 Character, 1:1 with 1/4 CR, with an AC of 13, 36-49 HP, and 4-5 Damage Per Round.

Now, what is 'balance'? Well I believe that is going to be the crux of the discussion, but ahem..

Balanced, despite what low ranked players in a competitive game will claim, is 50%, as our good man Thanos, is well aware.

Average roll on a D20? 10.5 or so Google tells me.
Fighter Proficiency at level 1? 2.
Ability Modifier to meet that 50% success rate on attacks? Well now...1.

10 + 2 + 1 = 13.

Balanced, not optimal, not most effective, would therefore be a nice, hearty strength of...12.

Right? Not Optimal! Not even really effective, but if you are looking at a balanced encounter 1 on 1, where 'balance' is a 50/50, thats it.

Heck, the DMG even has the Attack Bonus of 3, which again lines up nicely with our 2 Proficiency + 1 Ability Modifier (due to 12 Str).

I've never even bothered to look at that stuff before, but unless I'm crazy that lines up with my gut expectation that the game is probably 'balanced' around a +2, way more than expecting a +3.

Now I'm off to contemplate the balance of the universe, while I walk my dog.

 

[Chaosmancer]

Keep looking. They are social and serve as ambassadors, diplomates, magistrates. merchants, etc. Those are mental stat heavy.

Um... doesn't every race have diplomats and ambassadors? Isn't that kind of the point of the position? Same with merchants, everyone has merchants. And a lot of people definitely have magistrates.

So, if this is your evidence, basically everyone would be mental stat heavy.

I don't see the words nitrogen or carbon dioxide, either. What do plants breathe? What do humans exhale?

Not everything has to be written down for it to be present. Especially on a game built around common understandings of things.

The element of air from the Elemental Plane of Air? Aether? What did the ancient world think we breathed before we discovered Carbon Dioxide?

Take Beholders just for a moment. They are created out of dreams. They aren't born then grow, there is no egg or larva, a Beholder dreams and then a new fully formed beholder just appears in the world. How would they have genetics? Why would they have genetics, there is no genetic information being passed on.

Just because we know genetics is true in the real world doesn't mean it is necessarily true in a fantasy world.

 

[Chaosmancer]

So, coming back to this, I looked up the relevant page in the DMG (page 274) and then looked at what a 1st level character is meant to fight as per XGtE (page 90) and we get.

Level 1 Character, 1:1 with 1/4 CR, with an AC of 13, 36-49 HP, and 4-5 Damage Per Round.

Now, what is 'balance'? Well I believe that is going to be the crux of the discussion, but ahem..

View attachment 145488

Balanced, despite what low ranked players in a competitive game will claim, is 50%, as our good man Thanos, is well aware.

Average roll on a D20? 10.5 or so Google tells me.
Fighter Proficiency at level 1? 2.
Ability Modifier to meet that 50% success rate on attacks? Well now...1.

10 + 2 + 1 = 13.

Balanced, not optimal, not most effective, would therefore be a nice, hearty strength of...12.

Right? Not Optimal! Not even really effective, but if you are looking at a balanced encounter 1 on 1, where 'balance' is a 50/50, thats it.

Heck, the DMG even has the Attack Bonus of 3, which again lines up nicely with our 2 Proficiency + 1 Ability Modifier (due to 12 Str).

I've never even bothered to look at that stuff before, but unless I'm crazy that lines up with my gut expectation that the game is probably 'balanced' around a +2, way more than expecting a +3.

Now I'm off to contemplate the balance of the universe, while I walk my dog.

I would point out that going off of supervillains isn't the best argumentation. After all the humble sword is considered "balanced" if the blade (which is much longer) is of almost equal weight to the hilt (which is much smaller) so that the center of the blade is located a few inches below the tip.

In other words, 50/50 is not guaranteed to be balanced. In fact, we know that they did not look for an accuracy rate of 50%, because missing half the time feels bad. The balance point they sought was around 65%.

Of course, the last time I engaged in arguing this point, I was shouted down and accused of all manner of things. But I would note that since each face on the d20 is 5%, that getting a 16 for a +3 puts you right around that 60-65% mark.

 

[Minigiant]

So, coming back to this, I looked up the relevant page in the DMG (page 274) and then looked at what a 1st level character is meant to fight as per XGtE (page 90) and we get.

Level 1 Character, 1:1 with 1/4 CR, with an AC of 13, 36-49 HP, and 4-5 Damage Per Round.

Now, what is 'balance'? Well I believe that is going to be the crux of the discussion, but ahem..

View attachment 145488

Balanced, despite what low ranked players in a competitive game will claim, is 50%, as our good man Thanos, is well aware.

Average roll on a D20? 10.5 or so Google tells me.
Fighter Proficiency at level 1? 2.
Ability Modifier to meet that 50% success rate on attacks? Well now...1.

10 + 2 + 1 = 13.

Balanced, not optimal, not most effective, would therefore be a nice, hearty strength of...12.

Right? Not Optimal! Not even really effective, but if you are looking at a balanced encounter 1 on 1, where 'balance' is a 50/50, thats it.

Heck, the DMG even has the Attack Bonus of 3, which again lines up nicely with our 2 Proficiency + 1 Ability Modifier (due to 12 Str).

I've never even bothered to look at that stuff before, but unless I'm crazy that lines up with my gut expectation that the game is probably 'balanced' around a +2, way more than expecting a +3.

Now I'm off to contemplate the balance of the universe, while I walk my dog.

Like I mentioned before.

The PHB, Starter Set, and practical every PC example WOTC used for 5e has a character with a 16, 17, or 18 in the primary score for a level 1 character.

In the PHB and DMG they suggest classes and races of PCs to have matching Ability score focus.

So when I say "5e assumes a 16 in your primary score for normal PCs" and "Every sees have a 16+ in their class primary score and a 14+ in their secondary as normal and not optimizing nor powergaming" that's what I meant. 5e assumes a 16, it isn't built around it. It just expects you to roll a 16.

 

[HammerMan]

Balanced, despite what low ranked players in a competitive game will claim, is 50%, as our good man Thanos, is well aware.

Average roll on a D20? 10.5 or so Google tells me.
Fighter Proficiency at level 1? 2.
Ability Modifier to meet that 50% success rate on attacks? Well now...1.

10 + 2 + 1 = 13.

Balanced, not optimal, not most effective, would therefore be a nice, hearty strength of...12.

Right? Not Optimal! Not even really effective, but if you are looking at a balanced encounter 1 on 1, where 'balance' is a 50/50, thats it.

Heck, the DMG even has the Attack Bonus of 3, which again lines up nicely with our 2 Proficiency + 1 Ability Modifier (due to 12 Str).

I've never even bothered to look at that stuff before, but unless I'm crazy that lines up with my gut expectation that the game is probably 'balanced' around a +2, way more than expecting a +3.

Now I'm off to contemplate the balance of the universe, while I walk my dog.

I'm not sure that 50% is the balance point, and again the stat/prof remains the same for 3 levels (maybe more if mult class or use feats) so going of CR 1/4 is the lowest end that should be the easiest fight, you can be fighting up to a CR 3 at these bonuses to hit...

I know D&D didn't keep the categories from 4e (and man do I wish they would for 5.5) but I tried to find a "solider" at CR 1 (average level) and the biggest baddest CR 3 I could find...

SO even by your example, the easiest fight is 50/50, and the hardest fights (AC 17 )is 35/65 against the player... that doesn't seem suboptimal that seems dumb. (The situation not you)

for a 14 or 12 to be the balance point you should be able to show the ability to have a chance against any major AC, and any major threat in probably the CR 5 or less range.

Like I mentioned before.

The PHB, Starter Set, and practical every PC example WOTC used for 5e has a character with a 16, 17, or 18 in the primary score for a level 1 character.

In the PHB and DMG they suggest classes and races of PCs to have matching Ability score focus.

So when I say "5e assumes a 16 in your primary score for normal PCs" and "Every sees have a 16+ in their class primary score and a 14+ in their secondary as normal and not optimizing nor powergaming" that's what I meant. 5e assumes a 16, it isn't built around it. It just expects you to roll a 16.

wow that is easier then the math.

Can someone link or list all the places WoTC used pregens, if any have a 14 prime stat that gives @Scribe a chance to be right. if NONE do I think that sinks his arguement.

 

[Bolares]

Can someone link or list all the places WoTC used pregens, if any have a 14 prime stat that gives @Scribe a chance to be right. if NONE do I think that sinks his arguement.

I think the best place to look would be phandelver. That's the product WotC chose to teach people to play the game. The pregens should show new players the baseline character

 

[HammerMan]

I think the best place to look would be phandelver. That's the product WotC chose to teach people to play the game. The pregens should show new players the baseline character

good idea there is a PDF on the wizard site lets look:

FIghter 16 str 15 Con
Cleric 16 Wis 15 Con 14 Str
Rogue 16 Dex 16 Cha
Wizard 16 INt 15 Dex 14 Con
Fighter 16 Dex 15 COn 14 Str

I should have looked at the Con on the rogue before I shut it, but WoTC at least TEACHES 16 prime stat

 

[Aldarc]

good idea there is a PDF on the wizard site lets look:

FIghter 16 str 15 Con
Cleric 16 Wis 15 Con 14 Str
Rogue 16 Dex 16 Cha
Wizard 16 INt 15 Dex 14 Con
Fighter 16 Dex 15 COn 14 Str

I should have looked at the Con on the rogue before I shut it, but WoTC at least TEACHES 16 prime stat

12 Constitution for the Rogue

 

[Scribe]

Oh I'm not arguing that Wizards is telling players to aim for 50% success.

The 65% noted in the optimization articles is because yes, every +1 is a 5% increase.

Makes a person appreciate Bless a lot more...

All I'm saying is that the game, the crunch, doesn't expect a 16 score for a character to function.

Of course it will be better, add in a Bless, Advantage, and you're golden.

Unless someone has some additional math somewhere that proves the game breaks down if you don't start with 16 or 17?

Good luck changing my mind.