D&D 5E Minor Illusion question

[J.Quondam]

I think what makes illusions super weird that they self evidently are subjective. Depending if they have discerned the reality of the illusion or not, two people can perceive the exact same illusion differently. If this was not the case, I think it shouldn't be too hard to just deem them some sort of light manipulation and have a coherent model for them. But that subjectivity really throws a wrench into the works. It makes me think illusions are ultimately messing with your mind... Which brings us back to whether illusions, even high level ones, can provide actual light. If illusions are just in your head, that shouldn't be possible. You might think you can see things, but you wouldn't actually.

Yeah, I think that gets to what I meant earlier when saying that illusions straddle the line between enchantment and everything else. And that's what makes them so difficult to adjudicate, because they have such different "realness" to different viewers. And when you start factoring the different senses plus effects on the environment, the necessary mental gymnastics just escalates exponentially.

Despite (or maybe because of) RAW, I honestly don't think it's possible to be completely consistent with illusions, at least not in any way that would also keep them useful and fun in the game. They're just too nonsensical. Best policy, imo, is to just keep a big fat Bigby's Hand loaded and ready to slap down any and all rules-lawyers with prejudice.

 

[Swarmkeeper]

why?

My previous post answers "why":

D&D 5E - Minor Illusion question

Pretty sure this is raw theorycraft at work - like the infinite skeleton army, I'm not convinced that it'll ever be an issue in actual play. It isn't theorycraft, it's just that most people won't figure something like that out or the massive abuses Warlocks can put Silent Image to. Illusions...

www.enworld.org

SO the light passes through the darkness?

Yes. But that same light is not visible within the Darkness sphere. Otherwise, similar to how the Silence spell interacts with sound ("...no sound can... pass through..."), the text of the Darkness spell would specify that "no light can pass through"... but it does not say that.
I mean, you could rule that the Darkness acts like an opaque wall that can fully block light sources outside of it, but that's just not how I'm going to adjudicate it as DM.

[ducks to avoid possible Bigby's Hand from @J.Quondam]

 

[Sword of Spirit]

Illusions should make some sort of consistent sense where possible, but I don't think that sense should involve photons. The very way we think about light working is foreign to the fantasy genre. One should come up with a system that fits the feel you are going for. (I kind of like the idea the “perceptions” can be at least semi-objective things that all people will perceive, without having to be mental or interact with physical elements and energies.)

For those who aren’t familiar, 3e defined multiple different types of illusion spells, and whether their effects were in the world or just in the head of the perceiver (or some of both). Spell Descriptions :: d20srd.org

This is useful because almost every 5e illusion spell was around in 3e, and seems to function about the same as they did then.

 

[gatorized]

This is only an issue if your world features real world physics and non-smart magic (ie, magic that operates within physics like technology rather than creating effects based on intention).

It's only an issue if you want your game's systems to operate in such a way that your players are able to make meaningful decisions, ie. to be able to play the game.

 

[gatorized]

Magic is magical is about all you need here. Let's not overthink our elf games.

Of course they can be waved off as shark jumping. I just did it. You might not want to, and that's cool, but I have no interest in parsing the deep sweaty depths of how illusions work, so I mostly just adjudicate them as advertised.

Don't ever be a DM.

 

[J.Quondam]

It's only an issue if you want your game's systems to operate in such a way that your players are able to make meaningful decisions, ie. to be able to play the game.

Nonsense. Players just use different parameters to make their decisions. It doesn't mean those decisions are any less "meaningful."

 

[gator001]

Nonsense. Players just use different parameters to make their decisions. It doesn't mean those decisions are any less "meaningful."

If the rules of the game's systems are inconsistent or have inconsistent effects, the players can not make meaningful decisions.

 

[DEFCON 1]

Hey @gator001, since you seem to be hitting all the illusion threads right now... don't forget to chime in on the Railroads, Illusionism, and Participationism thread too!

 

[J.Quondam]

If the rules of the game's systems are inconsistent or have inconsistent effects, the players can not make meaningful decisions.

Yeah: nonsense. Players-- or at least creative players-- are quite capable of making decisions when the world is not predictable, and part of that can be reflected in shifting rules. That's a basic conceit of certain settings, adventures, environs, in fact. Fey, demons, non-euclidean horrors....

A lack of predictability changes the calculus, it doesn't prevent it. If you can't deal with a DM changing things up and keeping you on your toes now and then, you could check out any number of fantastic computer games on the market.

 

[Sword of Spirit]

It's only an issue if you want your game's systems to operate in such a way that your players are able to make meaningful decisions, ie. to be able to play the game.

Smart magic can still be consistent and more or less predictable. It just follows a different set of laws than real world physics. Spellcasting characters can be made aware of those laws and make meaningful decisions based on them.