D&D 5E Charms and Combat

[MarkB]

To me the initiative system is an abstract solution to who gets to go first. It doesn't need to follow what is happening in the narrative but it does need to exist to allow for different narrative options.

If someone cast Charm Person and it failed then it stands to reason the target would be upset and might fight.

But that's not what I'm asking.

Does a fight happen before the Charm Person is cast? The initiative system allows for an enemy to attack before the PC does a hostile action and vice versa. If a PC is going to cast Fireball I instead call for initiative and if someone beats their initiative then it gets explained away such as 'they see the intent in your eyes before you can act'.

It does get awkward - in my experience players will often have their characters use spells during social situations, like the earlier tongues example, or guidance, and you don't always want things to immediately erupt into conflict as a result.

My option would be that if someone's casting something that's disadvantageous to the subject, they can make a Deception check versus either the target's passive insight if the target wasn't paying direct attention to them, or as an opposed check if they're actively interacting. If the target fails, they're considered to be surprised for the first combat round and we can skip straight to resolving the spellcasting attempt. If their Insight check succeeds, we go to initiative.

The question then is whether the game needs to account for that with enchantment spells? If I cast Suggestion on a knight to ask them to give their horse to the first beggar they see can that knight win initiative and strike me down before I talk? Or put another way do we want that opportunity supported in the fiction?

For me I want to allow a space for enchantments and to me that means they can happen before initiative is rolled in the right circumstances. That makes them powerful but otherwise they would be too weak.

I know it's been ruled differently officially, but I run suggestion as the verbal component being the suggestion itself, i.e. "I suggest you head home and take a rest, you're not looking well." It's the Jedi mind trick, and even when Ben Kenobi is only convincing one officer that these aren't the droids he's looking for, he can do so without alerting the other troopers that something weird's going on - unless the officer succeeds on his saving throw.

 

[ad_hoc]

So, for conversations sake, lets say enchantment spells are granted a sucker punch; What happens when the target saves?

Let's put aside the framing of 'sucker punch' for now.

What happens after is another matter entirely. It depends on the nature of the charm.

If my Glamour Bard had just put on an enthralling performance the targets who saved would probably think it was a great show (I'm assuming a high performance) but wouldn't really understand the adulation some are giving.

With the Fae Spirit teleportation the targets would probably be annoyed. How annoyed would depend on their personality or could be hostile if they don't think kindly of fae.

A Suggestion? Might be downright insulting and depending on the target might start a fight or end a negotiation.

Charm Person? The target knows they were charmed after the spell is over but it doesn't say they know an attempt was made (and a target doesn't know unless explicitly stated). It's probably going to be an embarrassing situation for the enchanter. How obvious it is that a spell was cast will be up to the DM and will probably depend on the targeted creatures. Picture a conversation where one person adds some words in another language and has a flourish with their hands. A smart enchanter would be talking with their hands already, it would just be part of their mannerisms. Could be a contested check but likely a result similar to Suggestion.


The alternative is to effectively cut out enchantment as manipulation and magical charisma aid (Glibness isn't even enchantment for some reason) and relegate it to mind control attack. As subtle enchantment is a common thing in fantasy fiction I think the game loses out.

 

[ad_hoc]

It does get awkward - in my experience players will often have their characters use spells during social situations, like the earlier tongues example, or guidance, and you don't always want things to immediately erupt into conflict as a result.

My option would be that if someone's casting something that's disadvantageous to the subject, they can make a Deception check versus either the target's passive insight if the target wasn't paying direct attention to them, or as an opposed check if they're actively interacting. If the target fails, they're considered to be surprised for the first combat round and we can skip straight to resolving the spellcasting attempt. If their Insight check succeeds, we go to initiative.

This leaves the question of what happens if the targets fail their saves. Many charms will only really work if the target isn't aware they are charmed. Let's say in this scenario that an enchanter surprised their target and successfully cast Charm Person. Well the target still saw that a spell was cast and now they feel like the enchanter is a friend and are unwilling to attack them. If we're following the logic that the spellcasting is obvious and would be perceived as hostile then it would still be seen that way even if a charm works as most charms aren't actual mind control. They're just advantage to charisma checks.

I know it's been ruled differently officially, but I run suggestion as the verbal component being the suggestion itself, i.e. "I suggest you head home and take a rest, you're not looking well." It's the Jedi mind trick, and even when Ben Kenobi is only convincing one officer that these aren't the droids he's looking for, he can do so without alerting the other troopers that something weird's going on - unless the officer succeeds on his saving throw.

Yes, this is precisely what I'm arguing for. I want the Jedi Mind Trick to be able to be supported in the game.

If the target knows a spell was cast then they would likely cry for help even while compelled to do the action. That isn't the intent here though.

From Star Wars we also know what happens when it fails (whether it was intentional or not, let's not get into that one). The target would most likely find it weird and insulting.

If we're doing Suggestion as Jedi Mind Trick then that is a game where I'm into being an Enchanter or Glamour Bard. Otherwise, big nope and that's a shame.

 

[payn]

Let's put aside the framing of 'sucker punch' for now.

What happens after is another matter entirely. It depends on the nature of the charm.

If my Glamour Bard had just put on an enthralling performance the targets who saved would probably think it was a great show (I'm assuming a high performance) but wouldn't really understand the adulation some are giving.

With the Fae Spirit teleportation the targets would probably be annoyed. How annoyed would depend on their personality or could be hostile if they don't think kindly of fae.

A Suggestion? Might be downright insulting and depending on the target might start a fight or end a negotiation.

Charm Person? The target knows they were charmed after the spell is over but it doesn't say they know an attempt was made (and a target doesn't know unless explicitly stated). It's probably going to be an embarrassing situation for the enchanter. How obvious it is that a spell was cast will be up to the DM and will probably depend on the targeted creatures. Picture a conversation where one person adds some words in another language and has a flourish with their hands. A smart enchanter would be talking with their hands already, it would just be part of their mannerisms. Could be a contested check but likely a result similar to Suggestion.


The alternative is to effectively cut out enchantment as manipulation and magical charisma aid (Glibness isn't even enchantment for some reason) and relegate it to mind control attack. As subtle enchantment is a common thing in fantasy fiction I think the game loses out.

Sounds complicated, hope you work it out.

 

[Shiroiken]

It does get awkward - in my experience players will often have their characters use spells during social situations, like the earlier tongues example, or guidance, and you don't always want things to immediately erupt into conflict as a result.

My option would be that if someone's casting something that's disadvantageous to the subject, they can make a Deception check versus either the target's passive insight if the target wasn't paying direct attention to them, or as an opposed check if they're actively interacting. If the target fails, they're considered to be surprised for the first combat round and we can skip straight to resolving the spellcasting attempt. If their Insight check succeeds, we go to initiative.

I do this with any spell cast, not just disadvantageous ones. Casting a spell in front of someone who doesn't know magic is going to be considered suspicious, and noble/royal personages are going to have guards watching carefully. I allow Dex/Deception to perform it subtly to give them a chance of success, even if it's not very good. Failing this check will almost certainly trigger initiative, just like drawing a weapon, while success allows the spell to trigger without starting a combat.

I also find the "automatically knows it was magically influenced" to be problematic. Instead, when the effect ends the target makes an Int/Arcana DC: 10+spell level (use DC if non-spell ability). If successful, the target realizes it as normal, but otherwise they mentally justify their actions. If someone points out they were manipulated, they then become aware of the manipulate, even if they failed the check in the first place.

I know it's been ruled differently officially, but I run suggestion as the verbal component being the suggestion itself, i.e. "I suggest you head home and take a rest, you're not looking well." It's the Jedi mind trick, and even when Ben Kenobi is only convincing one officer that these aren't the droids he's looking for, he can do so without alerting the other troopers that something weird's going on - unless the officer succeeds on his saving throw.

Suggestion kinda needs this to be effective outside of combat (although it's amazing in combat). Something to be aware of though, is that the "official rulings" aren't actual rules; they're just the rulings by JC and others. I regularly ignore JC, who I feel is an idiot.

 

[Stalker0]

I do this with any spell cast, not just disadvantageous ones. Casting a spell in front of someone who doesn't know magic is going to be considered suspicious, and noble/royal personages are going to have guards watching carefully. I allow Dex/Deception to perform it subtly to give them a chance of success, even if it's not very good. Failing this check will almost certainly trigger initiative, just like drawing a weapon, while success allows the spell to trigger without starting a combat.

I also find the "automatically knows it was magically influenced" to be problematic. Instead, when the effect ends the target makes an Int/Arcana DC: 10+spell level (use DC if non-spell ability). If successful, the target realizes it as normal, but otherwise they mentally justify their actions. If someone points out they were manipulated, they then become aware of the manipulate, even if they failed the check in the first place.

Suggestion kinda needs this to be effective outside of combat (although it's amazing in combat). Something to be aware of though, is that the "official rulings" aren't actual rules; they're just the rulings by JC and others. I regularly ignore JC, who I feel is an idiot.

I agree on suggestion. It’s the fact that saying the suggestion is a part of the spell, and a regular spell has to take place within 3 seconds or so (to fit within one action within a 6 second time frame).

if you have another verbal component and then have to say the suggestion…that’s a lot of to get out of your mouth in 3 seconds.

So suggestion does get a bit of a pass from me, no crazy somatic component, the material component isn’t crazy looking, and the verbal is not alien language but a normal sentence. So to me that one is more like “Jedi mind trick” to me….or “the voice” with our recent dune resurgence

 

[ad_hoc]

Sounds complicated, hope you work it out.

It's complicated to decide how an NPC reacts depending on their personality and the situation?

That's just D&D 101 to me.

What do you do?

 

[MGibster]

Even Friendly and indifferent characters take offense to unsolicited spell casting on them in my settings.

That's how I roll in my games. In my first 5E campaign, one of the PCs wanted to cast Charm Person on the king. I explained that the spell has both verbal and somatic components so it's going to be obvious he's casting a spell unless he tries to hide it. Plus, the king's advisors, the arch-druid and bishop (cleric), were attending to the king at the time and they might take offense on his behalf if they observe you casting a spell upon him. A lot of players seem to treat any spell that doesn't cause damage is essentially harmless for some reason. You put a whammy on me that affects my mind and we're going to be enemies.

 

[ad_hoc]

That's how I roll in my games. In my first 5E campaign, one of the PCs wanted to cast Charm Person on the king. I explained that the spell has both verbal and somatic components so it's going to be obvious he's casting a spell unless he tries to hide it. Plus, the king's advisors, the arch-druid and bishop (cleric), were attending to the king at the time and they might take offense on his behalf if they observe you casting a spell upon him. A lot of players seem to treat any spell that doesn't cause damage is essentially harmless for some reason. You put a whammy on me that affects my mind and we're going to be enemies.

How about a lone NPC? Can a character cast Charm Person on them or will they automatically know?

And what about having friends nearby? They will try to convince the charmed character that they are charmed, but how does the charmed character respond to that?

If the target of Charm Person just automatically knows they are charmed then the spell is pretty bad.

I think there is a trend towards not allowing subtler charms and I think the game loses something for it.

I guess if nothing else I recommend advising players of how charms are going to be handled at the beginning of the game.

 

[MGibster]

How about a lone NPC? Can a character cast Charm Person on them or will they automatically know?

They'll know. If they make their saving roll they'll know the PC was trying to do something to them even if they don't have the arcane knowledge to exactly what they were attempting to accomplish. That's just how I handle it at my table and isn't something I can point to in the rules.

And what about having friends nearby? They will try to convince the charmed character that they are charmed, but how does the charmed character respond to that?

And this is why my players don't use Charm Person any more. As written, it's a weak spell. In third edition, the target of a Charm Person spell would treat the caster as a trusted friend and ally. In 5th edition, the target of the spell treats the caster as a friendly acquaintance. There's no way I'm going to trust a "friendly acquaintance" over my party members whom I often depend on for my life. So I would interpret it as the PCs being able to talk their friend out of treating the caster as a friendly acquaintance fairly easily.

f the target of Charm Person just automatically knows they are charmed then the spell is pretty bad.

As written, the target of the spell realizes they were charmed once it wears off.

think there is a trend towards not allowing subtler charms and I think the game loses something for it.

I think Charm Person should be rewritten to be a little more useful. And I don't mind subtle, but if you have V,S components then you've got to do something to keep the casting hidden in my opinion. And I'd give the PC some options including Deception, Sleight of Hand, Performance, or whatever else best fits the situation.