D&D General What kind of class design do you prefer?

[Stormonu]

Wait, heroquest is still a thing? I used to play that years ago and had thought they'd stopped making it.

Yeah, there was a "kickstarter" on Hasbro pulse last year. It's just now delivering - as I said, just got my copy yesterday.

 

[cbwjm]

I get it but assuming you have the requisite 13 strength or 13 dexterity it is 3 levels period and the same for everyone. And just because you decided to play a Bard at 1st level and then picked up great weapon master, you are not locked out of that class forever because you don't have the sharpshooter feat or martial weapon proficiency.

Even in the DM allows retraining that is hardly a fix. To start with you completely have to change your character to do it it and even then - what if after going 2 levels in Arcane Archer I want to pick up a level in shadowdancer? I can't retrain now because if I do I have to go back and undo the feats I took to be an Arcane Archer.

Well yeah, but I don't really think every character should be able to access every option, you need to make some choices along the way somewhere and at least retraining in PF2, which is a standard downtime activity (I just looked it up) allows you to make some changes if you've decided that you want to take your character in another direction. Really it's no different to multiclassing in 5e, you might decide you want to add X class to your current character only to find that you have to wait for your next ASI to take a level. This happened to a player of mine who was a fighter and wanted to pick up a level of cleric, I ended up allowing him to change some stat allocations, otherwise he'd have had to have waited until level 9 to pick up that level of cleric.

 

[cbwjm]

Yeah, there was a "kickstarter" on Hasbro pulse last year. It's just now delivering - as I said, just got my copy yesterday.

I'd love for this to be released in NZ as well, I can't tell from the Hasbro Pulse page if this will also have a standard release, looks like a kickstarter type thing only.

 

[Horwath]

d12 - non caster
d10 - spell levels every 4 levels
d8 - spell levels every 3 levels
d6 - spell levels every 2 levels

 

[Yaarel]

d12 - non caster
d10 - spell levels every 4 levels
d8 - spell levels every 3 levels
d6 - spell levels every 2 levels

Not bad.



Note d8 is average for most creatures.

Arguably, martial class training makes its trainees beefier than average, whence d10 and d12.

Meanwhile, perhaps those who immerse in magic are somewhat neglectful of their physical body.

But it all depends on class concept. For example, the Cleric maintains the average despite immersing in magic, because hit points also include intangibles like luck, fate, and magic.

Also, I view the Sorcerer class as having ones own body transformed into a magical body. Thus the body itself is the source of the magic and the Sorcerer training is learning how to "pilot" this magic body. In this sense, Sorcerer is one of the few magical character concepts that could have Constitution as the spellcasting ability. Depending on interpretation, the fullcaster concept could be average d8, or enhanced d10 or d12, or perhaps depleted d6.

 

[Yaarel]

Well yeah, but I don't really think every character should be able to access every option, you need to make some choices along the way somewhere and at least retraining in PF2, which is a standard downtime activity (I just looked it up) allows you to make some changes if you've decided that you want to take your character in another direction. Really it's no different to multiclassing in 5e, you might decide you want to add X class to your current character only to find that you have to wait for your next ASI to take a level. This happened to a player of mine who was a fighter and wanted to pick up a level of cleric, I ended up allowing him to change some stat allocations, otherwise he'd have had to have waited until level 9 to pick up that level of cleric.

In 5e, level 1 is relatively frontloaded.

If level 0 unpacks this into several steps, then a player can start at level 1. Then later a multiclasser would take level zero, to represent the introductory capabilities, before advancing to level 1 in the class.

To some degree, taking an initiate feat in an other class resembles level 0. Thus taking the feat would be in lieu of spending a level on level 0.

Using downtown to swap features (including known spells, skills, even abilities or an entire class or subclass with DM agreement) sounds fine to me.

 

[Horwath]

Not bad.



Note d8 is average for most creatures.

Arguably, martial class training makes its trainees beefier than average, whence d10 and d12.

Meanwhile, perhaps those who immerse in magic are somewhat neglectful of their physical body.

But it all depends on class concept. For example, the Cleric maintains the average despite immersing in magic.

Also, I view the Sorcerer class as having ones own body transformed into a magical body. Thus the body itself is the source of the magic and the Sorcerer training is learning how to "pilot" this magic body. In this sense, Sorcerer is one of the few magical character concept that could have Constitution as the spellcasting ability. Depending on interpretation, the fullcaster concept could be average d8, or enhanced d10 or d12, or perhaps depleted d6.

I would go with subclasses that increase HPs,
I.E. Draconic sorcerer of battlemage(warpriest) could have +1 HP per level or a barbarian(beserker).

Also have all spells available to all classes, just have sub-classes have certain number of certain bonus spells prepared(known) by default.

 

[Undrave]

Ah. So not a conversation, I see. Cheers.

The "Dark ages" thing was just me being facetitious. Because there was no internet.

But my point is that mechanical elements allow a player to impact the game world without relying entirely on the DM's whim and experience. Mechanics help put people's expectation of result on a more even field. It's not fool proof but it helps players retain a certain ammount of agency. Relying entirely on 'imagination' feels a little gatekeepy to me, making it so only a certain kind of person can play the game to its fullest. It's a bit like how it sometimes feel like people look down on those who use grids and maps for battle... but the truth is that not everybody has the same ability to picture things in their minds. Some people are downright neurologically incapable, it's not even a question of just exercising that ability. I'm sure someone who is great at improv would have a blast in the game you describe but I'd feel lost and even a little alienated in similar circumstance and I'd feel like I'm bringing the whole mood down.

I guess not every game is for everybody though... and I already feel like the Scrappy of my own group so I guess I would just quit playing D&D with my friends if it became like you described.

Wait, heroquest is still a thing? I used to play that years ago and had thought they'd stopped making it.

Nothing that can be ressurected by nostalgia truly ever dies... from what I understand they made a new edition with a big kickstarter thing and all that with a giant fancy box?

 

[Yaarel]

I consider 13 "average". Anything less is "few", and anything more is "many".



In terms of more or less, I consider the archetypal numbers of one plus threes: 1, 4, 7, 10, and 13.

13 to me seems the upper limit of a comprehensive organizing approach. Anything more and it feels more like an alphabet and accidental.

4 is elemental, here, each of the four classes should be fundamentally different from each other, and together represent a comprehensive system.

1 is a classless class that can spend resources to gain any capability. Many other games are like this.

7 and 10 are interesting numberings. They are like 4 but allow for more nuance.

 

[Yaarel]

I want options. Paradoxically I want the option to have less options, similar to the way feats and multiclassing are handled. Currently feats and multiclassing are optional additions to the game. I would like subclasses and archetypes to be optional additions.

That is kinda the way 5e is now. The only "core" is: PH, DMG, and MM. Everything else is "rules options".



It might be, the anniversary 50e will update the core in light of the ongoing experiences of 5e during the preceding 10 years. But it will probably still comprise a "core" plus "options".