D&D General What kind of class design do you prefer?

[Undrave]

I'm not familiar with Hero Quest, sorry.

"HeroQuest is the best game ever made and anybody who thinks otherwise is wrong!"

 

[Krachek]

if we use 5th as a case,
12 classes, 13 with the artificer. is that a lot or few?
Also 10-12 sub classes choice per class, is that narrow?

So we got 120 choices, more or less depending on what source book we use.
we didn't include sub classes inner choice, like Ranger hunter choices or battle master choice of manœuvers, but we can add dozens of other choices.

How can we increase this further?
We can allow cross sub class choice for independant choice like fighter 7th level choice like remarkable athlete or Know your enemy. Those choice could be offer in a pool. Likewise paladin aura at level 7 can be offer in a common pool. That would crank up the actual choice without changing the core game.

Two others mechanics hinder options multiplications.
The choice or feats vs ASI. If both were offer without competition it would make a great boost on overall options.

The restriction on MC and extra attack make mix between martial classes very unattractive.
Just allowing MC to merge for extra attack will probably increase the options greatly.

 

[Crimson Longinus]

12 classes, 13 with the artificer. is that a lot or few?

A lot.

Also 10-12 sub classes choice per class, is that narrow?

That is a lot too. The issue is that most subclasses are needlessly rigid and bizarrely narrow, which means you need a ton of them.

 

[overgeeked]

your players and they should be happy with whatever tablescrap you hand them?

Any "DM may I" system unjustly punishes Fighter -types, everybody knows that.

dark ages

Ah. So not a conversation, I see. Cheers.

 

[cbwjm]

PF improved it, but it is still not as open as 5E IMO. The big problem is not the garbage feats, although those do exist, but that good feats are not available or that good feats are bad choices because the opportunity cost of not optimizing and "falling behind" is so high.

Also even in PF prestige classes have a bunch of stupid prerequisites, and while they are not "garbage feats" they are prerequisites and you are either locked out of that prestige class because you did not take the prerequisites or you are locked out of building the character you want because you have to take the prerequisites when you have feat options.

For example if I am playing a wizard and I decide at 12th level that I want to be an Arcane Archer because that is cool and we got a magic bow and I just want to do it. If I have not planned for it already, it is going to be AT LEAST 20th level Wizard before I have all the feats I need in place. To make matters worse I am a wizard and I get regular bonus feats, but for some stupid reason I can't use them to get any of the feats that are actually needed for an Arcane Archer. The vast majority of prestige classes will be similar or worse. If I want to be an assasin and I am not evil, I need to figure out how to change my freaking alignment.

Those kinds of restrictions are just stupid and it is a HUGE limitation on the actual choices you have for your character at any time after 1st level.

I thought PF2 allows for retraining. It's been a while since I looked through the main book so I might be wrong on that.

5e has the issue, for some, that to become that arcane archer you have to take 3 levels of fighter, at least with PF2, you get to keep advancing as a wizard (though unless retraining is a thing, then yeah, waiting until level 20 to pick up the archetype is no fun). You'll probably also want to get to 5th level so that you can attack at least twice a round with the bow, otherwise, a couple of magical arrows fired and then you're back to being better off firing cantrips or spells.

 

[ECMO3]

I do think prestige classes should have restrictions and not willy nilly join up cause I found a bow. Archetypes make that kind of thing work. YMMV

What this says is a player should not be able to make choices about his character based on how the game has evolved. Regardless if it is because we found a magic bow I want to use or because we befriended an NPC and I want to learn to do that or whatever. If I want to be an Arcane Archer I need to make that choice at level 1 when I pick my class, 1st level feat etc and before we play a single session, even though it will be at least 6 levels before I can actually do it. It is not really a viable character choice any time after level 1 and I can't really change my mind and go a different direction because the feat I chose at level 1 will support Arcane Archer but won't support a different choice.

And it is not just Arcane Archer it is the vast majorty of prestige classes. If we are investigating a cult of assassins and I want to take a level in assassin so we can infiltrate them I can't.

This is way better in 5E where as long as you have a 13 in the stat(s) you can pick a new class at any time with virtually no bad repurcussions or wasted decisions.

 

[cbwjm]

Don't you diss my HeroQuest, my copy just came in the mail.

And who doesn't roleplay when they play HeroQuest/Gloomhaven/Descent/Warhammer Quest? (though I'll forgive skipping it in Dungeon!)

Wait, heroquest is still a thing? I used to play that years ago and had thought they'd stopped making it.

 

[Maxperson]

if we use 5th as a case,
12 classes, 13 with the artificer. is that a lot or few?
Also 10-12 sub classes choice per class, is that narrow?

Compare to 3e/3.5

Classes: 63ish
Prestige Classes: 965ish
Feats: Even more than prestige classes(not counting them).

How can we increase this further?

See above. Pretty easy to increase further.

 

[ECMO3]

I thought PF2 allows for retraining. It's been a while since I looked through the main book so I might be wrong on that.

5e has the issue, for some, that to become that arcane archer you have to take 3 levels of fighter, at least with PF2, you get to keep advancing as a wizard (though unless retraining is a thing, then yeah, waiting until level 20 to pick up the archetype is no fun). You'll probably also want to get to 5th level so that you can attack at least twice a round with the bow, otherwise, a couple of magical arrows fired and then you're back to being better off firing cantrips or spells.

I get it but assuming you have the requisite 13 strength or 13 dexterity it is 3 levels period and the same for everyone. And just because you decided to play a Bard at 1st level and then picked up great weapon master, you are not locked out of that class forever because you don't have the sharpshooter feat or martial weapon proficiency.

Even in the DM allows retraining that is hardly a fix. To start with you completely have to change your character to do it it and even then - what if after going 2 levels in Arcane Archer I want to pick up a level in shadowdancer? I can't retrain now because if I do I have to go back and undo the feats I took to be an Arcane Archer.

 

[ECMO3]

Same. 3e had more classes than 5e and tons of prestige classes and tons of feats. I could build just about any concept I could imagine, which I also very much miss in 5e. 5e is a lot more balanced, but I would give up some of that balance to get the ability to make my character concepts and not be pigeon holed into 5e's much more narrow band of concepts.

This is not true. Most of those feats had prerequisites, many of them chains were you needed like 3 other feats to get a certain feat. All of the prestige classes had prerequisites. You have very few actual viable combinations that you can build.

The whole problem with 3E is you are on a railroad and you could only build based on the forks on that railroad and that is largely determined by what you decided to do at 1st or very early levels. There are a lot of options but few of them can be combined, and fewer still if you want your character to be viable.

3E is like going to a restaurant with a 100 page menu, but if you order a main course off of page 1 then your drink, dessert, and sides all need to come from page 1 too, you are not allowed to order anything on pages 2-100. 5E is like a 10 page menu and you can mix and match almost anything on the menu.