D&D 5E How do you determine your initial Attributes?

[Maxperson]

As mentioned, all these elements were not really well considered when I was young, and I might add in particular in France, so I never really sought help. Still, my ex-wife became more and more obsessed with this and it widened the rift between us, as she was looking for some explanation, and at the same time some of the implications of what she was saying were being said in a bit of a hurtful way as well, so it made matter worse. Which is one of the reasons I'm glad to have my partner who was way more professional about this and gave me really good advice, so maybe it can do you good as well. Good luck !

We're similar in age. I think from some of the things you've said here that you might be a few years older and here in the U.S. there wasn't help for me when I was young, either. I'm glad you found someone more understanding. It makes a huge difference.

 

[Scribe]

I'm very surprised with how many roll vs array. I figured point buy would be popular but the rng of rolling just turns me off personally.

 

[Scars Unseen]

Very true, but then the problem with the low scores is that you end up in ranges which are extremely quickly allocated to animals. I don't want to appear insensitive towards animals, some mammals in particular display great level of intelligence, but these are still many order of magnitude below human intellect in terms of possibilities. All in all, this does not point towards a linear scale in any way.

As I kind of indicated in an earlier post, that's less a problem with the ability score system and more with people trying to apply the same meanings across species. As much as I hate the IQ comparison, if one were to consider it as an analogue for the intelligence score, what then is the IQ of an ape? Or any other animal? Turns out, that's not really an easy question to answer because IQ tests are engineered towards testing specific kinds of human intelligence, and they don't apply to any other species than human. You can test animal intelligence, but not with the same test (or even the same test for all animals), and the results are not directly comparable.

If we can't assess intelligence as a unified trait across species in real life, then why are we treating a very abstract rating of intelligence as having equal specific meaning across species in our fantasy game? How many languages can a cat learn? Does a squirrel get a negative to its Arcana checks?

 

[Maxperson]

I'm very surprised with how many roll vs array. I figured point buy would be popular but the rng of rolling just turns me off personally.

I'm actually surprised that point buy is more popular here than array. I thought those would be reversed. Rolling is where I thought it would be, though.

 

[Maxperson]

If we can't assess intelligence as a unified trait across species in real life, then why are we treating a very abstract rating of intelligence as having equal specific meaning across species in our fantasy game?

Those are the rules, and I imagine the rules were designed that way to enforce consistency. If we have to have one type of intelligence for humans, a second for animals, a third for giants, a fourth for dragons, a fifth for illithids, a sixth for orcs, a seventh for kobolds...

Having one unified way of running intelligence in the game is a boon.

 

[Crimson Longinus]

I'm actually surprised that point buy is more popular here than array. I thought those would be reversed. Rolling is where I thought it would be, though.

I am actually surprised anyone uses array, except when accidentally building it with point buy. Rolling of course is a terrible idea, but it is apparent that a lot people love it. But I assumed that those who don't use rolling, use pretty much exclusively point buy.


In any case, point buy for me. Though in my campaign we use a modified version.

 

[Scars Unseen]

Those are the rules, and I imagine the rules were designed that way to enforce consistency. If we have to have one type of intelligence for humans, a second for animals, a third for giants, a fourth for dragons, a fifth for illithids, a sixth for orcs, a seventh for kobolds...

Having one unified way of running intelligence in the game is a boon.

That's not what I was saying. I'm not saying to have multiple mechanical systems for intelligence. I'm saying that there is no reason for the fluff to follow when it doesn't make sense, and that the best way to make sense of it isn't that someone with a low intelligence has the intelligence of an animal. In fact, I'd say that's possibly one of the worst ways to do it for multiple reasons, one of them being the implications it has for people who actually do have a mental impairment.

It's easy enough to allow that an ape and a human both get a -2 on intelligence checks mechanically and then also acknowledge that a human is not an ape, and intelligence doesn't apply the same way. A human with a 6 intelligence gets a -2 to religion checks. An ape doesn't make religion checks because it doesn't know what religion is in the first place.

 

[Sepulchrave II]

As much as I hate the IQ comparison, if one were to consider it as an analogue for the intelligence score, what then is the IQ of an ape? Or any other animal?

If we can't assess intelligence as a unified trait across species in real life, then why are we treating a very abstract rating of intelligence as having equal specific meaning across species in our fantasy game? How many languages can a cat learn? Does a squirrel get a negative to its Arcana checks?

Koko was given IQ tests as an infant which suggested that her IQ was in the 70-90 range, but I agree that these metrics are arbitrary and interspecies comparisons fraught.

Many corvids (crows, ravens, magpies, jackdaws) have demonstrated cognitive abilities comparable with 7-year old humans. I think that, in general, we underappreciate animal intelligence.

Given that consciousness is the only quality of any value in a universe which otherwise consists of colliding atoms, that probably explains why I'm a vegan.

 

[Crimson Longinus]

There are some approximate comparisons of animal and human intelligence. It is not really about IQ though, but about what level of human development the animal (very roughly) corresponds to. So whether they understand object permanence (snakes don't; they're very, very dumb) or have theory of mind (i.e can understand that other creatures know different things than them) etc. So dogs are roughly as smart than two-year-old humans and non-human apes are roughly on par with four-year-old humans. This of course is pretty human centric way of looking at things but then again, it might be pretty useful POV for us humans.

 

[Maxperson]

That's not what I was saying. I'm not saying to have multiple mechanical systems for intelligence. I'm saying that there is no reason for the fluff to follow when it doesn't make sense, and that the best way to make sense of it isn't that someone with a low intelligence has the intelligence of an animal. In fact, I'd say that's possibly one of the worst ways to do it for multiple reasons, one of them being the implications it has for people who actually do have a mental impairment.

That's fair. My point is more that below average is by the rules in 5e, below average mental acuity, reasoning and memory. That's an impairment and one that in my opinion should be roleplayed in some way.

It's easy enough to allow that an ape and a human both get a -2 on intelligence checks mechanically and then also acknowledge that a human is not an ape, and intelligence doesn't apply the same way. A human with a 6 intelligence gets a -2 to religion checks. An ape doesn't make religion checks because it doesn't know what religion is in the first place.

Ahh, but I think a lot of humans who while being charged by an ape suddenly found religion, so there is a connection.