D&D 5E How do you determine your initial Attributes?

[Maxperson]

One of my favourite characters ever was a priestess with an Int of 8, and basically I did not play her dumb for what was a long campaign, because that would have been incredibly boring in short order. But she wrote everything down, on little pieces of parchment, that she sometimes lost (sometimes with hilarious or dramatic effect), and she sometimes (but not too often so as not to annoy the other players) asked other members of the party to summarise the situation for her. And that was it.

My partner is an orthophonist, who works with all sorts of people with impairment, cognitive, speech, etc. from very small children to elderly (or not so elderly, which is really sad) people who have diseases or accidents, etc. and there are almost as many factors as there are people. It's all well and good to say "impaired mental acuity", but what does it really mean in the game, knowing that it's still a game and should not be used derisively.

That's why I leave it to my players how they roleplay being below average, but some method of being below average is expected. I also don't mind the PC having inspirations sometimes. And of course the player can talk to other players out of character figuring stuff out.

A guy I used to play with was probably in the 8-9 intelligence range. He wasn't that smart, but his main issue was processing speed. During 3e, we were once in a fight against Kostchtchie and some other giants and his barbarian was about to be smashed to a pulp by Kostchtchie himself. My wizard seeing the situation used a limited wish spell to place my Ring of 9 Lives(which healed the wearer when "killed") on his finger so he would survive. After the game he came to me and asked me if I came up with that right then. I told him yes. He said that it would have taken him a week to come up with that, if he came up with it at all.

That comment got me paying more attention to people who weren't as smart and watching how they do things. A lot of it really is just processing speed. It takes them longer to come up with ideas that smarter people come up with quickly, and many times they give up before they get there. It's not that they can't do the things the rest of us do, it's just harder. Which brings me back around to being okay with low intelligence PCs having inspirations and sometimes coming up with solutions to problems that a lot of people would think that a low intelligence person couldn't come up with.

And there is the problem the other way around. How do you play someone with a genius-like intelligence ? This is why, honestly, especially for this stat (but also wisdom or charisma), I feel it's usually better to leave it to purely mechanical effects...

I take care of this. Since a non-genius literally can't ever play a PC like that, I will often just give the genius PC information without a roll. Or if I know that there is a connection, but the in game links are tenuous and hard to see, I'll sometimes link them and let the player know that his PC sees the links. It's the best I can do to help the PC be the genius its int stat shows.

 

[Weiley31]

I do the method my DM does for his DND sessions, which is the same method I used to roll up my very first ever character for DND 5E, and DND as a whole:

Roll 4D7, remove the lowest. Reroll all 1s and 2s. Go down in order. The "Seventh" roll is used as a wildcard roll and can be used to replace any one of the previous six attribute scores rolled.

 

[Lyxen]

That's why I leave it to my players how they roleplay being below average, but some method of being below average is expected. I also don't mind the PC having inspirations sometimes. And of course the player can talk to other players out of character figuring stuff out.

The problem is that "below average" can mean tons of things, but also the fact that with the minimum being 8, there is much less difference between average and minimum than between average and maximum. So if you expect a significant difference between 8 and 10, how can you expect an incredible difference between 10 and 18 or 20 ?

That comment got me paying more attention to people who weren't as smart and watching how they do things. A lot of it really is just processing speed.

It's the case for some people, but honestly, again after many discussions with my partner who is really specialised on that subject, it's only one aspect. For example, she is a brilliant person, but she has no memories for faces, voices or names. I am, all modesty aside, a really clever guy with an I.Q. well over 150, with an international manager job and a large salary, but I also feel like a real imposter now and then because I miss things, or completely fail to see some side of the problems, or because my social intelligence is actually fairly low and I feel awkward in common social situations. I also have little memory for people and names, which is a real problem in my job and every day life. And I can remember old contractual details or facts with perfect memory, but my ex-wife was way better than me at remembering all the family members, their birth dates, and family histories and anecdotes, etc. I'm also very imaginative and have a systemic brain that means that I have lots of ideas, but I also find it hard concentrating, and it's hard for me to come up with things under pressure. On the contrary, I have colleagues maybe not as brilliant with ideas, but who are I feel far better than me because they are hard workers, able to concentrate and push through problems to find solutions, when for me, the best way to solve something is to not consciously think about it.

We are all extremely different, some people are faster and other slower in some areas, some people will find imaginative solutions and others will completely fail to find any way forward, some people can think laterally others cannot, etc. Some people are limited in some areas but not at all in others, some people can push through and others will never find specific things, etc.

This is why, again, for all these things, rather than playing dumb all the time for being "below average", I think it's way better to find a few quirks and to stick with them in terms of roleplay. It also avoids stereotyping "dumb" people, which is always dangerous.

I take care of this. Since a non-genius literally can't ever play a PC like that, I will often just give the genius PC information without a roll. Or if I know that there is a connection, but the in game links are tenuous and hard to see, I'll sometimes link them and let the player know that his PC sees the links. It's the best I can do to help the PC be the genius its int stat shows.

I do the same, I was mostly pointing out that, as above, it's more about quirks and local traits than about consistently playing someone of low or high intelligence, the former because it's boring and dangerous, and the latter because it's just impossible without aid that can only be punctual...

 

[Amrûnril]

The problem is that "below average" can mean tons of things, but also the fact that with the minimum being 8, there is much less difference between average and minimum than between average and maximum. So if you expect a significant difference between 8 and 10, how can you expect an incredible difference between 10 and 18 or 20 ?

I agree with most of this, but I'll note that 8 is only the minimum with point buy/standard array. If the point buy formula were adjusted to allow the range of scores possible through rolling, it could facilitate more nuance in portraying low scores.

 

[Maxperson]

The problem is that "below average" can mean tons of things, but also the fact that with the minimum being 8, there is much less difference between average and minimum than between average and maximum. So if you expect a significant difference between 8 and 10, how can you expect an incredible difference between 10 and 18 or 20 ?

It's tough, but it's also a game. It doesn't have to align 100%. I just want an approximation of the roleplay of a low intelligence. Again, I leave the details up to the players.

It's the case for some people, but honestly, again after many discussions with my partner who is really specialised on that subject, it's only one aspect. For example, she is a brilliant person, but she has no memories for faces, voices or names. I am, all modesty aside, a really clever guy with an I.Q. well over 150, with an international manager job and a large salary, but I also feel like a real imposter now and then because I miss things, or completely fail to see some side of the problems, or because my social intelligence is actually fairly low and I feel awkward in common social situations. I also have little memory for people and names, which is a real problem in my job and every day life. And I can remember old contractual details or facts with perfect memory, but my ex-wife was way better than me at remembering all the family members, their birth dates, and family histories and anecdotes, etc. I'm also very imaginative and have a systemic brain that means that I have lots of ideas, but I also find it hard concentrating, and it's hard for me to come up with things under pressure. On the contrary, I have colleagues maybe not as brilliant with ideas, but who are I feel far better than me because they are hard workers, able to concentrate and push through problems to find solutions, when for me, the best way to solve something is to not consciously think about it.

Holy cow. I feel like I'm looking into a mirror with that description. I have ADHD, maybe you do as well.

 

[Lyxen]

I agree with most of this, but I'll note that 8 is only the minimum with point buy/standard array. If the point buy formula were adjusted to allow the range of scores possible through rolling, it could facilitate more nuance in portraying low scores.

Very true, but then the problem with the low scores is that you end up in ranges which are extremely quickly allocated to animals. I don't want to appear insensitive towards animals, some mammals in particular display great level of intelligence, but these are still many order of magnitude below human intellect in terms of possibilities. All in all, this does not point towards a linear scale in any way.

 

[Lyxen]

It's tough, but it's also a game. It doesn't have to align 100%. I just want an approximation of the roleplay of a low intelligence. Again, I leave the details up to the players.

I think it's best. For example, what I do try to limit in game is people with high charisma playing dumped-charisma characters, because it feels unfair to our "equal-opportunity" table philosophy where players with low charisma can roleplay a leader if they want. But as long as there is a modicum of roleplay of one's stat, we are all happy, it's not absolutely mandatory, it's just a good "plus" for the table when done well...

Holy cow. I feel like I'm looking into a mirror with that description.

It might be whey we had difficult beginnings you and I here, strong opinions and too similar.

That being said, I think it's also something that I've observed, many of the people that I've encountered playing the game over 4 continents also display at least some elements of that behaviour, it's still a nerd's game in many ways.

it does not mean that it cannot interest other people - especially with the 5e take on things - but I think that nerds are still particularly attracted to it - by the way, it's not meant as an insult at all if you don't consider yourself that way, it's just I have no problem applying it to myself.

I have ADHD, maybe you do as well.

I have never been diagnosed with it, but then I'm a bit too old for it to have been considered at the time. My ex-wife thought that I displayed some autistic traits as well - and it was actually one of the reasons we ended our marriage. On the other hand, my partner who sees a lot of autistic children as part of her job also says that there are so many cases and symptoms, but that, to her, although some of my behaviours might be considered autistic, I am certainly not within the range of being considered autistic to any degree. A very complex subject in any case, and the more discussions I have with her the more careful I am with all these labels, because if there's one thing that she's always insisting on is that each person is really unique and that classification and stereotyping is really dangerous.

 

[Maxperson]

I think it's best. For example, what I do try to limit in game is people with high charisma playing dumped-charisma characters, because it feels unfair to our "equal-opportunity" table philosophy where players with low charisma can roleplay a leader if they want. But as long as there is a modicum of roleplay of one's stat, we are all happy, it's not absolutely mandatory, it's just a good "plus" for the table when done well...

I don't limit that. I just do something similar to the genius intelligence. I run what is said through a charisma filter. So if I have an eloquent player who is playing a PC with a 7 charisma, even the most eloquent speech is going to be run through that filter and the NPC is going to hear the speech come out of the PC sounding like a braying mule. Okay, a bit of hyperbole there, but you get the drift. The same goes for the high charisma PC and player who stammers and stutters. The NPCs are going to hear a much clearer and inspirational speech.

It might be whey we had difficult beginnings you and I here, strong opinions and too similar.

Very likely. My 8 year old who is a little mini me in personality clashes with me all the time.

That being said, I think it's also something that I've observed, many of the people that I've encountered playing the game over 4 continents also display at least some elements of that behaviour, it's still a nerd's game in many ways.

Agreed, but in a much more limited(one continent) scope.

I have never been diagnosed with it, but then I'm a bit too old for it to have been considered at the time. My ex-wife thought that I displayed some autistic traits as well - and it was actually one of the reasons we ended our marriage. On the other hand, my partner who sees a lot of autistic children as part of her job also says that there are so many cases and symptoms, but that, to her, although some of my behaviours might be considered autistic, I am certainly not within the range of being considered autistic to any degree. A very complex subject in any case, and the more discussions I have with her the more careful I am with all these labels, because if there's one thing that she's always insisting on is that each person is really unique and that classification and stereotyping is really dangerous.

My mother is a therapist with a Masters. My uncle as well. My two of my mother's ex-husbands are PHD psychologists with prominent, well known clientele. All of them have said they thought I have ADHD, but I've never been officially diagnosed. My son was just diagnosed with it, though, and as I said above, the little guy is a mini me.

It's interesting about the autism behaviors you mention. While ADHD is not on the autism spectrum, a lot of the behaviors are related and they share some symptoms. The other night my wife came in with some TikTok video asking "ADHD" questions and asking the viewer to see if any apply. A lot of them applied in whole or almost like what I feel or do. Then the guy was like, "Surprise! Those are autism behaviors." None of my family have ever thought I was on the autism spectrum.

I have actually been debating getting an official diagnosis to help with my focus issues.

 

[Lyxen]

I don't limit that. I just do something similar to the genius intelligence. I run what is said through a charisma filter. So if I have an eloquent player who is playing a PC with a 7 charisma, even the most eloquent speech is going to be run through that filter and the NPC is going to hear the speech come out of the PC sounding like a braying mule. Okay, a bit of hyperbole there, but you get the drift. The same goes for the high charisma PC and player who stammers and stutters. The NPCs are going to hear a much clearer and inspirational speech.

Yep, same way to look at things.

Very likely. My 8 year old who is a little mini me in personality clashes with me all the time.

I've had only daughters, and no actual clone of me, good luck with the little guy.

My mother is a therapist with a Masters. My uncle as well. My two of my mother's ex-husbands are PHD psychologists with prominent, well known clientele. All of them have said they thought I have ADHD, but I've never been officially diagnosed. My son was just diagnosed with it, though, and as I said above, the little guy is a mini me.

It's interesting about the autism behaviors you mention. While ADHD is not on the autism spectrum, a lot of the behaviors are related and they share some symptoms. The other night my wife came in with some TikTok video asking "ADHD" questions and asking the viewer to see if any apply. A lot of them applied in whole or almost like what I feel or do. Then the guy was like, "Surprise! Those are autism behaviors." None of my family have ever thought I was on the autism spectrum.

I have actually been debating getting an official diagnosis to help with my focus issues.

As mentioned, all these elements were not really well considered when I was young, and I might add in particular in France, so I never really sought help. Still, my ex-wife became more and more obsessed with this and it widened the rift between us, as she was looking for some explanation, and at the same time some of the implications of what she was saying were being said in a bit of a hurtful way as well, so it made matter worse. Which is one of the reasons I'm glad to have my partner who was way more professional about this and gave me really good advice, so maybe it can do you good as well. Good luck !

 

[Amrûnril]

Very true, but then the problem with the low scores is that you end up in ranges which are extremely quickly allocated to animals. I don't want to appear insensitive towards animals, some mammals in particular display great level of intelligence, but these are still many order of magnitude below human intellect in terms of possibilities. All in all, this does not point towards a linear scale in any way.

I see the concern. Personally though, my stance would be that the it's best to focus on making the system work as well as possible for humanoids and then worry about how to caluclate stats for everything else. Taking advantage of the range from 3 to 7 can add a useful amount of nuance to comparisons among humanoids. In contrast, if you're trying to represent the intelligence difference between a chimpanzee and a stegosaurus or the strength difference between a raven and a wooly mammoth, the system's going to be horendously callibrated regardless of whether you have humans in the 3 to 7 range.