D&D General Why is D&D 4E a "tactical" game?

[Garthanos]

That second thing. But not everyone wants that in their game.

The point was it can be the same adversary and not whether anybody likes the simplifications. (I didnt like the simplification of Hit Points in AD&D times came up with a hitpointless version of D&D - turned out to be much like a different scaled mutant and master minds),
For me the simplifications of the tiered swarm/minion/standard/elite/solo are valuable both as an ease factor for encounter design and in helping the fight to be tactical instead of the boring slog mentioned earlier.

 

[Deekin]

Different stat blocks represent different creatures to me. The higher levels are not just simplified, they have different attack modifiers and hit points. You can claim that a commoner and an archmage are exactly the same all you want, I disagree.

I'm done having this argument.

I'm deeply confused by this stance.

My character at level 2 and level 6 have very different statblocks. Are they different people?

If a villan flees, then seeks out the blessings of a dark God to become more powerful, well, that's going to change his stats, but he still the same person, right?

 

[bert1001 fka bert1000]

Different stat blocks represent different creatures to me. The higher levels are not just simplified, they have different attack modifiers and hit points. You can claim that a commoner and an archmage are exactly the same all you want, I disagree.

I'm done having this argument.

That's a fine preference. There are games where different stat blocks always mean different creatures. I don't begruge you this preference. There are certain benefits to this approach that sim-oriented folks like since they know how this 'objective' stat block can interact with things other than PCs. How long would it take this Ogre to chop down a tree with hardness X and Y HP?

4e isn't one of those games though. The objection is that you are insisting on applying this "different stat blocks means different creature" lens to 4e when clearly applying a different lens leads to a much more coherent system and game.

 

[bert1001 fka bert1000]

I'm deeply confused by this stance.

My character at level 2 and level 6 have very different statblocks. Are they different people?

If a villan flees, then seeks out the blessings of a dark God to become more powerful, well, that's going to change his stats, but he still the same person, right?

I could be wrong, but I don't think they have an issue with that.

I think they have an issue for when the monster fiction doesn't change -- it's the same Ogre with no change in training, diet, etc.

But the PC fiction changes (grows much more powerful) and then the mechanics behind representing the same Ogre change (minionized) to better represent the new fictional interaction between this much more powerful PC vs. the same Ogre.

 

[Oofta]

I'm deeply confused by this stance.

My character at level 2 and level 6 have very different statblocks. Are they different people?

If a villan flees, then seeks out the blessings of a dark God to become more powerful, well, that's going to change his stats, but he still the same person, right?

The cases where the PCs are going to encounter the exact same ogre are slim. It can happen I suppose ... but encountering the exact same ogre that was an "Ogre Savage" with 111 HP is now going to be a "Ogre Thug" with better defenses and attack bonus but 1 HP? Those are not the same creature to me. Y'all are splitting hairs here and creating a straw man ogre.

On the other hand in 5E I can have exactly the same stat block and that ogre the PC ran away from at level 1? Well, now he's back but the PCs are level 10. If he's alone it's a trivial encounter, if he's brought along a dozen buddies it could be a tough fight.

 

[Justice and Rule]

The cases where the PCs are going to encounter the exact same ogre are slim. It can happen I suppose ... but encountering the exact same ogre that was an "Ogre Savage" with 111 HP is now going to be a "Ogre Thug" with better defenses and attack bonus but 1 HP? Those are not the same creature to me. Y'all are splitting hairs here and creating a straw man ogre.

But you're not including the context as to why the change happened: the players increased in level, thus necessitating a mechanical change to emulate the fiction being created. That mechanical change is the Ogre being much easier to kill because in the fiction they've become better at it. You cannot separate the mechanical differences from why the differences come about, otherwise you're only showing half the picture.

 

[Garthanos]

And as I mentioned in my previous reply to you, throwing 10 ogres each with 59 hit points and AC 11 to make it a "challenge" in 5e will lead to an utterly tedious and boring experience. Encouraging bad experiences is not a good thing.

This is why swarms and minions and similar simplification rock... throwing tons of level 5 ogres at epic pcs would be a drag on 4e too. They just say don't do it use these simpler models.

 

[Thomas Shey]

This is why swarms and minions and similar simplification rock...

Well, there are a couple things here.

1. You don't have to have full blown mook rules to make fights non-tedious. As I've noted, most PF2e fights are 3-5 rounds.
2. That said, you do need something like that if you want really large numbers of relatively low end opponents who are still (at least collectively) a threat. This is why most modern superhero games have something of that nature (and its one of the things correctly touted as a virtue of Savage Worlds frequently). Usually just dropping levels either doesn't make them brittle enough to be practical, or if it does, drops them so far they're no longer any sort of real threat.

 

[bert1001 fka bert1000]

That swarm of orcs has a different stat block does that mean the narrative of the monster is different?

Or does it mean the systems mechanics are representing the same thing in a way appropriate to context?

T

That second thing. But not everyone wants that in their game.

Thank you! If you recognize that system mechanics are representing the same thing in a way appropriate to context, then we can talk about preferences or pros and cons vs. other ways of trying to create the fictional situtions.

 

[Oofta]

But you're not including the context as to why the change happened: the players increased in level, thus necessitating a mechanical change to emulate the fiction being created. That mechanical change is the Ogre being much easier to kill because in the fiction they've become better at it. You cannot separate the mechanical differences from why the differences come about, otherwise you're only showing half the picture.

I dislike being rude but I'm done with this conversation. Have a good one.