D&D 5E The fighter's Indomitable ability

[ECMO3]

wait you think maxing 2+ stats is that easy?

by 10th level you have +6, so if you start with an 18 and a 16 you can but most characters don't start with both 18 and 16 (yes some out leers for ungodly rolls exist)

A Mountain Dwarf can start with 2 17s on point buy and have 2 20s by 8th level.

 

[NotAYakk]

I would rather if it just succeeded like legendary resistance

Yes, this is what I think it should be.

Doing this turns bad levels into acceptable ones.

 

[Mordhau]

You can get 2 twenties relatively easily as a Fighter by level 10 so long as you don't get any feats.

You just need to start with 2 16s.

I played a Goliath with 2 20s a while (Strength and Con)

As a Fighter I would generally not go for 2 twenties but would instead aim for a good Wisdom and get resilient (Wisdom). Wisdom saves are the things that can see you taken out of an entire combat, so it's a good thing to get. (People always underrate this because everyone likes to plan for best case scenarios).

 

[ECMO3]

You can get 2 twenties relatively easily as a Fighter by level 10 so long as you don't get any feats.

You just need to start with 2 16s.

I played a Goliath with 2 20s a while (Strength and Con)

You get an ASI at 4, 6 and 8. This would leave you with one 20 and one 18 at 10th level if you started with 2 16s. You would need to go to 12th level to get 20s in both.

 

[Mordhau]

You get an ASI at 4, 6 and 8. This would leave you with one 20 and one 18 at 10th level if you started with 2 16s. You would need to go to 12th level to get 20s in both.

Yeah I think I'm misremembering. You're right. It's rogues who get a bump at 10 not Fighters.

 

[Quickleaf]

I think 9th level Indomitable is an example of weak design, for two reasons. First is comparing to monk's 14th level Diamond Soul. And second is comparing to non-proficient save DCs around 9th level (when Indomitable becomes available).

Your proposed tweak to make it recharge on a short rest seems reasonable to me. It highlights that the fighter can do this reliably, and "reliability" is the main shtick of the fighter class design.

Diamond Soul comparison
Indomitable is outshined by the monk’s Diamond Soul in every way – except that fighters get Indomitable earlier than monks.

With Indomitable, a fighter can reroll a saving throw 1 to 3 times per day.

With Diamond Soul, a monk can reroll a saving throw multiple times per day and also gets proficiency in all saving throws. At 14th level, a monk has 14 ki points, so they could conceivably do this way more than the fighter, but a realistic ballpark is expending ki points three times per day on Diamond Soul.

In this regard, monk and fighter are competing for the same design niche, and the monk is outperforming the fighter when viewed across the entire level span.

Saving Throw DC for Non-Proficient Saves

By the time a fighter gets Indomitable at 9th level, save DCs are 16+, and you have two types of saving throws: Those you have about +9 or better on, and those you have like +2 or worse on.

So you almost always use Indomitable on saves you've only got a 25% chance of success on anyways.

For me, it rarely feels good to use this ability. Instead it feels like, "Reroll a save you still can't possibly make. Pray for a natural 20!" or "Waste an ability rolling d20+12 vs DC 17. Nice rolling, chump. I bet you won't need this later, right?"

Fixes/Tweaks (for those who thing it could use them)
Making Indomitable recharge on short rests would be one approach.

The original playtest design for Indomitable granted advantage on all saves, IIRC. That would be another approach.

Some people have replaced Indomitable with Legendary Resistances, so instead of a reroll it's an auto-success on a save. Pretty powerful, but that's another approach.

In my latest rewrite of the fighter class, I opted to make it about damage mitigation instead of saving throw boosting – which I'm not 100% on, as it wouldn't apply to charm effects, for example – but that's another approach:

Starting at 9th level, when you fail a saving throw against a spell or effect dealing damage, you may choose to take half damage. You can’t use this feature again until you finish a long rest. You may use this feature twice between long rests starting at 13th level and three times between long rests starting at 17th level.

 

[ECMO3]

So you almost always use Indomitable on saves you've only got a 25% chance of success on anyways.

IME this is untrue. Usually Indomitable is used on Constitution or Dexterity saves. Your constitution save should be +4 or better by 9th level (potentially +9, but for most probably between +5 and +8). Your Dexterity save can be anywhere from -1 to +5 at this level, but I would say higher than +2 is more common than lower than +2. Wisdom saves are the thrid most common and any one of these three (Constitution/Dexterity/Wisdom) are used more often than all the rest combined.

The reason the ability is used most often on Constitution and Dexterity saves are two-fold

1. Constitution and Dexerity are the most common saving throws made and one of the most common saves failed, even with the higher bonuses. Even with a +9 you will still fail 25% of your throws against a target 15. As such you will fail constitution and dexterity saves more often than you will fail Intelligence, Charisma or Strength saves. Taken together, you will probably fail constitution and dexterity saves combined more than you will fail wisdom saves.

2. The payoff for using it is higher. While a fighter might fail more wisdom saves than they do constitution or dex saves individually, burning the ability is not as attractive on wisdom saves. For example, fighting a Green Dragon who uses Dragonfear- I can burn it to try and prevent DC16 Dragonfear I just failed, but like you said I need to roll high. Alternatively I can just accept the "frightened" condition for one turn, since I save again next turn against the fear anyway. Doing this keeps it in my back pocket for when the Dragon breaths his poision gas. When he does this I am probably going to need a 10-13for the Con save, meaning it is very possible I won't save and Indomitable is actually likely to fix that.

 

[Mordhau]

2. The payoff for using it is higher. While a fighter might fail more wisdom saves than they do constitution or dex saves individually, burning the ability is not as attractive on wisdom saves. For example, fighting a Green Dragon who uses Dragonfear- I can burn it to try and prevent DC16 Dragonfear I just failed, but like you said I need to roll high. Alternatively I can just accept the "frightened" condition for one turn, since I save again next turn against the fear anyway. Doing this keeps it in my back pocket for when the Dragon breaths his poision gas. When he does this I am probably going to need a 10-13for the Con save, meaning it is very possible I won't save and Indomitable is actually likely to fix that.

This is why a decent Wis and Resilient (Wis) is a very good use of a feat for Fighter.

Because once you have you can use it along with indominitable to not be taken out of fights when it really matters that you not be taken out.

 

[ECMO3]

This is why a decent Wis and Resilient (Wis) is a very good use of a feat for Fighter.

Because once you have you can use it along with indominitable to not be taken out of fights when it really matters that you not be taken out.

I can't argue with this logic. You are probably right. I just personally do not like that feat.

 

[Quartz]

In the years since I posted my OP I have come to the conclusion that Indomitable should mean that you automatically pass the save, just like Legendary Resistance. This addresses many of the issues raised in this thread. In particular it prevents an enemy Diviner wizard negating it which is decidedly unfun. It also better fits the name. I also pull it to 4th level:

Indomitable: Beginning at 4th level you may pass a saving throw you fail (q.v. Legendary Resistance). In addition, if the save is versus a spell which does not ordinarily allow a saving throw the spell has no effect if it does not do damage or does half damage if it does damage. You may use Indomitable once per Short Rest. At 9th level you may use Indomitable twice per Short Rest. At 17th level you may use Indomitable three times per Short Rest. You recover all uses after a Short or Long Rest.

I'm thinking of switching out the 9th level or 17th level boost for something in another pillar.