• The VOIDRUNNER'S CODEX is coming! Explore new worlds, fight oppressive empires, fend off fearsome aliens, and wield deadly psionics with this comprehensive boxed set expansion for 5E and A5E!

D&D (2024) I think we are on the cusp of a sea change.

Eh. There's always a tendency to play follow-the-leader when something is successful and well-known, but I think "consensus" overstates it pretty severely.
It certainly looked like one to me at the time.

In the late 90s we were playing.
Storyteller Games
Gurps
Fading Suns
Deadlands
Legends of the Five Rings
7th Sea
Silhouette games: Tribe 8, Heavy Gear
Unisystem games: All Flesh must be eaten

Am I missing any big games from the period that used a radically different design approach?

I can't remember when the Forge got started exactly, but that really seemed to be the green shoots of something new (but was pretty small for a long time).
 

log in or register to remove this ad

Mercurius

Legend
It was like new authors who didn't write in the grimdark style basically stopped being published for several years, though.

I remember it pretty distinctly. And the authors which were grimdark were promoted and marketed vastly more aggressively than older authors who weren't, for that period. It definitely had a significant and long-term impact on the fantasy landscape. There are authors successful today, who had the whole "grimdark" thing not happened and been pushed by publishers, might never have been successful. There are others who it impacted the career of.

And saying that "the old stuff doesn't go away" is totally wrong with fantasy particularly. Some stuff which was absolutely huge, earth-shatteringly influential, in the 1970s and earlier 1980s was basically close to forgotten by the 1990s, and is nearly completely forgotten now. Case in point, Michael Moorcock. He was a goddamn titan up into the early '80s, even non-fantasy critics and stuff were talking about him. Today? Most fantasy readers have never even heard of him, let alone read one of his books. He's a large part of the reason D&D and Warhammer are the way they are, but you'll hear 30-somethings who've never heard of him blithely asserting both were influenced more or less solely by Tolkien (which with Warhammer particularly is just completely insane nonsense of the most ignorant kind - but then other 20-something and 30-something people slap each other on the back and all agree about about). It's a travesty but it's a thing that's already happened.

Some fantasy stuff survives better (it's hard to predict which, it's certainly not related to how influential it is), but an awful lot of it absolutely does "go away". Hell, hardly anyone under about 35 seems to have actually read any pulp fantasy at all apart from maybe a few Conan short stories if you're very lucky.
Moorcock is an author, not a theme or sub-genre. That's what I was talking about. Oh yeah, and Moorcock is still publishing - he has a following. Maybe newer fans haven't heard of him, but he's known by everyone with anything more than a surface knowledge of fantasy.

Moorcock was instrumental in establishing sword & sorcery, or reviving it in the 60s. And it hasn't gone away. It may not be as prominent as other sub-genres of fantasy, but it still has a strong following, and has also influenced grimdark.

That said, I hear you about him being under-appreciated in terms of his influence. In my mind, and I think in the minds with scholars of the genre, he's a giant.

And I hear you about stuff fading, and younger folks not having a historical context. That's probably just due to casual fandom: most people read The Latest Thing, and only serious fans look back beyond stuff published more than 20 years ago or so.

But my point is, even if things rise and fall, a lot of stuff comes back around. That's how the fashion world works (as far as I understand it).

We also live somewhat in a "post-genre era," where there is less room for new territory to be discovered, and a wealth of old stuff to sort through and re-vitalize in new ways. I mean, have you ever noticed how the cultural themes of the 20th century are more vivid than in the 21st century? Maybe it is "recency blindness," but I just don't see the 2000s or 2010s as having as vivid a "cultural signature" as the 1920s - 1990s. It is almost like we, or at least Western culture, tried everything out in the 20th century, and the 21st century is more about re-combining and integrating, with less new ideas coming in. Very postmodern of us! Just a hypothesis, though.

p.s. Seeing as you're obviously a sword & sorcery fan, have you checked out the recent survey of the field, Flame and Crimson? A fun book.
 

MGibster

Legend
They want people they can play with. It's what we all want. The thing is, one of the side effects of this golden age is its easier than ever to find people you can play with, your way. There is a table out there for you so long as you are someone who's bringing good to the table.
Is this the problem though? I'm in my mid-40s, and I'm not really interested in gaming with people in their 20s. It's not that I have anything against younger players, I'm glad they're coming into gaming, but I don't have anything common with them and they probably don't want to hang out with me either. I don't imagine that influx of new gamers are going to be the type of people the old guard are doing to want to game with for the most part.
 


Thomas Shey

Legend
It certainly looked like one to me at the time.

In the late 90s we were playing.
Storyteller Games
Gurps
Fading Suns
Deadlands
Legends of the Five Rings
7th Sea
Silhouette games: Tribe 8, Heavy Gear
Unisystem games: All Flesh must be eaten

Am I missing any big games from the period that used a radically different design approach?

Well, part of the problem is that I don't think a lot of the games you listed used a particularly similar design approach. Just because they didn't use classes and levels doesn't make GURPS and Storyteller particularly similar. I'm not familiar enough with LotFR or 7th Seas to judge, but among the ones you list that I am, only Silhouette and Storyteller seem at all similar to me (they're at least both die pool games that pay attention to individual die results) but even that's stretching it a bit.
 

For what we know for now it’s a promise of full compatibility.
That’s not very sea change.
it will certainly be more rules of cool, less trap options and more versatile features.
Core mechanics will stay the same, and actual change on lineage and alignment are not sea change, but more a marketing adjustment for the game.
They can rewrite classes and align them with a shorten adventuring day without changing the overall power level of the PC.
The overall direction of the game is the rule of cool and the open options.
Those who hope for harsh and tactical play style will be disappointed.
 

Mercurius

Legend
Latest trends to whom?

Corollary, just because it’s giving people future shock doesn’t mean it’s new or out of the blue, it might mean they are a tad bit lost.
I'm talking about latest artistic and cultural trends, especially in the English-speaking world (which is most relevant to D&D).

As to the last, I'm not sure entirely what you're saying. I don't think all hesitation to leave behind the old and/or embrace the new is necessarily future shock, just as I don't think that whatever is new is inherently "better" than what is old.
 

cowpie

Adventurer
There's some debate about that, but yeah, that's one of the two cases I referred to earlier.

But some of the swing away from D&D structures in some countries well predates Storyteller.



Eh. There's always a tendency to play follow-the-leader when something is successful and well-known, but I think "consensus" overstates it pretty severely.
With 2nd Edition, TSR was also putting out some meh products, mostly because of the mismanagement of their publishing agreement with Random House. They got partially paid in advance by Random House for everything they published, but RH could return unsold books for a refund. Every time TSR ran into debt, they would put out umpteen jillion paperback novels, and D&D splatbooks no one wanted. RH would pay in advance for these, and then they'd use RH's own cash to pay RH their refund.

When the new books got returned, they would publish even more books to get RH to give them more cash so they could pay off their debt to RH for the last books--yntil Random House got fed up with this practice, and sued TSR into bankruptcy.

To finance this death-spiral, TSR churned out lots of low quality product, at exactly the time that new RPGs (like WoD) were coming out and directly challenging TSR for control of a very limited market.
 

Well, part of the problem is that I don't think a lot of the games you listed used a particularly similar design approach. Just because they didn't use classes and levels doesn't make GURPS and Storyteller particularly similar. I'm not familiar enough with LotFR or 7th Seas to judge, but among the ones you list that I am, only Silhouette and Storyteller seem at all similar to me (they're at least both die pool games that pay attention to individual die results) but even that's stretching it a bit.
I said how they're similar. Stat + Skill with Advantages and Disadvantages.

I didn't say they were similar in all ways. I think the many ways they are different makes the points where they converged more striking.
 

Thomas Shey

Legend
Is this the problem though? I'm in my mid-40s, and I'm not really interested in gaming with people in their 20s. It's not that I have anything against younger players, I'm glad they're coming into gaming, but I don't have anything common with them and they probably don't want to hang out with me either. I don't imagine that influx of new gamers are going to be the type of people the old guard are doing to want to game with for the most part.

Eh. I'm absolutely an old fart, but I'm playing with people that cover at least a 20 year range in ages, and I wouldn't intrinsically object to a younger player than that. I don't think age directly maps to gaming expectations in any solid way; there might be trends, but there are plenty of outliers (or you wouldn't see as much of the OSR resurgence).
 

Remove ads

Top