D&D General Which Sacred Cow Will Be The Last To Slaughter?

[Ruin Explorer]

...isn't vancian magic already slaughtered for, what, 13 years now?

Sorta?

4E killed it. 5E reanimated it, but it came back changed, so now it's a weird system that's half-way between Vancian magic and a spell-point system. I think DND2024 will be the last time we see it in its current form. I expect any 7E to adopt a system that's either 4E-like or more akin to spell-points.

 

[Oofta]

Anyone voting "DM" is a silly person, because I guarantee that with in 20-30 years, maybe a lot sooner, someone will invent an at least sorta-competent "virtual DM", and/or WotC (or whoever owns D&D at that point) will release a DM-less version of D&D (there are already many DM-less and even solo TT RPGs out there which actually work, note).

Classes are a decent guess but I suspect we'll see them go eventually, not deleted or anything, but just made a choice that's not particularly defining.

HP I think will be the actual last thing to go, simply because it's a hard system to beat, being very simple. I do think they'll get modified, and I don't think 3/4/5E's "linear HP increase" will last beyond DND2024.

Generalist AIs have been 10 years out for the past 60 years. So I'm not holding my breath on an even reasonably competent virtual DM better than what we already have in co-op video games. I suppose a DM-less version of D&D is possible but some of us actually enjoy being on both sides of the screen, it's part of the appeal of the game.

So I think you're the silly person.

 

[Ruin Explorer]

Generalist AIs have been 10 years out for the past 60 years. So I'm not holding my breath on an even reasonably competent virtual DM better than what we already have in co-op video games. I suppose a DM-less version of D&D is possible but some of us actually enjoy being on both sides of the screen, it's part of the appeal of the game.

So I think you're the silly person.

I am a silly person but that's beside the point!

My point is, even without a virtual DM, WotC or whoever is going to put out either a version of D&D, or versions of certain adventures/campaigns, which you can run through without a DM, using the approaches games like Ironsworn use, or even more straightforward ones. Once that's happened, the DM has effectively no longer been made a "sacred cow", even if they still have "preferred cow platinum" status.

(PS I was skeptical about this too until I actually looked at modern DM-less RPGs - I wouldn't necessarily want to play them with a large group, but 1-3 players? Sure.)

 

[pogre]

Sure.

Some, maybe. Which ones did you have in mind that are roughly comparable?

WFRP and Runequest jump to mind. Those are in roughly the same genre.

 

[loverdrive]

Anyone voting "DM" is a silly person, because I guarantee that with in 20-30 years, maybe a lot sooner, someone will invent an at least sorta-competent "virtual DM"

Not exactly D&D, but I've been playing AW with AI Dungeon and it's actually pretty good. Prolly better than some of the game masters and players I've met.

Sorta?

4E killed it. 5E reanimated it, but it came back changed, so now it's a weird system that's half-way between Vancian magic and a spell-point system. I think DND2024 will be the last time we see it in its current form. I expect any 7E to adopt a system that's either 4E-like or more akin to spell-points.

I personally wish they don't go spell points way. Spell slots are amazingly easy to count. Juggling magicka points in Elder Scrolls gets very annoying very fast.

Although, I thought the same about stress in Fate, and then Condensed came out and now it's just a normal countdown.

 

[Oofta]

I am a silly person but that's beside the point!

My point is, even without a virtual DM, WotC or whoever is going to put out either a version of D&D, or versions of certain adventures/campaigns, which you can run through without a DM, using the approaches games like Ironsworn use, or even more straightforward ones. Once that's happened, the DM has effectively no longer been made a "sacred cow", even if they still have "preferred cow platinum" status.

(PS I was skeptical about this too until I actually looked at modern DM-less RPGs - I wouldn't necessarily want to play them with a large group, but 1-3 players? Sure.)

Technically there have been a few D&D themed board games that come close to a DM-less game, I know there are some D&D adjacent products also do it. Heck, back in the day there were instructions on running random dungeons that you could play without a DM. So yes, I could see some modules or optional rules .

Just not sure if we'll get rid of a DM completely in anything we call D&D. Even if we develop an AI that is good enough to run the game it may not prioritize such an inefficient use of it's meat puppet slaves for a game.

 

[Ruin Explorer]

I personally wish they don't go spell points way. Spell slots are amazingly easy to count. Juggling magicka points in Elder Scrolls gets very annoying very fast.

Although, I thought the same about stress in Fate, and then Condensed came out and now it's just a normal countdown.

Yeah I dunno exactly what the right way to go is, but I'm fairly confident it's not the weirdly mixed approach to spell slots that we have right now.

Also, I think we can actually take Vancian magic off the list entirely, despite 3 people believing it will never die, because it already did die. Unquestionably. You can't be the last sacred cow to be slaughtered when you already got slaughtered! That it got brought back doesn't retroactively undo the slaughter.

I'd argue the same applied to XP and Alignment, because they're strictly optional. I don't think anything that's strictly optional can be a "sacred cow". Like, maybe they're cows who still have access to the business class lounge or whatever, but they're not sacred. I guess the 0 votes for either supports this.

Just not sure if we'll get rid of a DM completely in anything we call D&D.

I guess I think we probably will and I think we'll see non-AI-based DMless D&D included as an optional approach in a 7E. Whether you regard that as slaughtering a sacred cow is another matter. Personally for me, the moment a "sacred cow" becomes a solidly-developed corebook optional rule (even if the expectation is you keep it), it loses that "sacred" status and merely becomes a cow people like a lot, so it's irrelevant whether it's slaughtered or not.

You also don't need a true AI for the AI option, just a well-designed AI director-type deal and cooperative players. No-one has really attempted this yet to me knowledge (the closest is us AI Dungeon as per @loverdrive but that is a true AI (if I understand it correctly), just not one designed for this).

But will we see human DMs eliminated entirely? Like, not even optional? I don't think that'll happen in the foreseeable future

 

[Vaalingrade]

The core of Vancian spellcasting 'prepare spells with slots, waste time with busywork for a magic system far removed from the setting where it w interesting and made sense' is still here.

 

[Swarmkeeper]

Sacred? No.
Scared? Often!

Scarred? Sometimes.

 

[J.Quondam]

They've recently taught brainoids how to play Pong, so clearly the next step is to teach them D&D.
Just skip the AI, and go straight for a DM brain-in-a-jar!