Sword of Spirit
Legend
Personally I'm not going to allow the parry property to stack with two weapons because I think it's over-powered compared to other weapon properties. (I haven't worried about the Duelist yet.)
Well, generally, yes, you can't apply expertise dice to AC, as AC isn't a rolled value, and expertise dice are only generally described as applying, and stacking, to rolled values.By the same argument, you can't apply expertise dice to AC at all because AC isn't a rolled value. Only "an attack roll or saving throw, or in a specific skill or tool proficiency" gets an expertise die.
However, due to the specific rule for parrying weapons we can add an expertise die to AC. The specific rule doesn't mention the stacking rule, so the general rule for stacking should still apply.
Oh we can slice this a few waysThe scaling mechanic, rules-as-written, however, still only applies to rolls, no matter how you slice it, and none of the features include verbiage to indicate otherwise.
Specific overrides general, though, and the Parrying property, the Duelist Parry and Thrust and Elusive features, and the Parrying Counter combat maneuver specifically say you can, which means ... that you can.
If, as you've presented it, the general rule for stacking applied, why would Elusive need to call out the feature in that way, rather than simply stating that you gain an expertise die the way that everything else that grants expertise does?
I agree, I was really just using that as a context for 1st order vs 2nd order interpretations, with the goal of showing that 2nd order tend to be "weaker" interpretations than 1st order.The rules on page 402 are for Passive Checks only and have specific cases in which they apply.
AC sort of looks like a passive check if you just go by adding numbers without considering anything else. AC isn't a passive check because when a character is being attacked, they are under pressure and can't take as long as they need.
- The average result for a task done repeatedly or continuously, such as taking in the details of a room on first sight.
- When a character is under no pressure and can take as long as they need, such as opening a locked chest in a safe location during downtime.
- To determine a character’s knowledge or awareness (possibly in secret) without rolling dice, such as recalling a local culture’s legend or noticing an ambush.
A passive check is closer to what 3.x called "taking ten" than it is to AC, even though AC also starts out at 10.
I concede the point: the rules as written, under the strictest interpretation provide no identified meaning to the phrase "...you can gain an expertise die to your AC..."Oh we can slice this a few ways
Pg 11 of the AG "
When you make a d20 roll with which you have gained an expertise die, roll 1d4 and add the number rolled to the result of your check." I will also note that all rules regarding stacking expertise dice are found in this section of the book, meaning that they are all collected together to explain the function of expertise dice.
The specifics of parrying allow us to gain an expertise die to our AC. However, that does not actually tell us how to use that expertise die with a non-rolled value.
By the absolute strictest interpretation of RAW, gaining an expertise die to my AC still does nothing, because no D20 roll has occurred, and so there is no trigger for me to roll a 1d4 and add it to my AC. General design principles suggest that any ability specifically given that has absolutely no game impact is in error....and the strictest RAW fails that test.
We then take it one step out with a first order interpretation. We apply the normal rules of expertise dice....but now apply them to a static value (in this case, AC). However, now that we have opened the door of normal expertise usage, the closest to RAW would be to use ALL normal rules (aka you can't start cherrypicking which section of the expertise die section you would like to use). Again looking at the section that explain how to use expertise die, also includes the section that explains what to do if you have multiple expertise die. Both must be followed to remain within normal rules. Therefore, stacking of expertise die on AC is the closest to RAW we can manage.
In summary: I am forced to make a non-RAW interpretation of the parrying ability in order to make it work at all. The least interpretation is to use the normal rules for expertise dice and apply it to the non-rolled thing that the ability specified (in this case AC). So I am now using normal expertise dice rules, and therefore....the closest to RAW would be to use ALL normal rules for expertise dice, which includes stacking.
Technically, the "increase by one stage" language gives us 1 additional benefit over normal expertise die stacking..... the ability to go beyond 1d8.it doesn't address why the Elusive ability specifically calls out that the die increases by one stage.