D&D 5E Aren't Short Rest classes *better* in "story-based" games rather than dungeon crawls?

I have always seen most "story based" games having only one combat per long rest, which definitely props the wizard up there. Whereas, "dungeon crawls" favor those short-resters. Of course, that is why in a campaign, it is good to have a mixture, this way there is an ebb and flow to the character spotlight.
 

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Lyxen

Great Old One
I have always seen most "story based" games having only one combat per long rest, which definitely props the wizard up there.

Not necessarily, it can also be a series of shorter fights, like in a chase, or the culmination of a siege, or whatever you have in your story. And these, with or without short rests, everything is possible, and trying to force things according to a technical pattern because it would be either advantageous or prescribed by rules is exactly why it was not done in 5e, it would be contrary to the openness of the system.
 

Asisreo

Patron Badass
I have always seen most "story based" games having only one combat per long rest, which definitely props the wizard up there. Whereas, "dungeon crawls" favor those short-resters. Of course, that is why in a campaign, it is good to have a mixture, this way there is an ebb and flow to the character spotlight.
The question: Why does a single combat favor the wizard?

Let's assume the warlock does not use up slots until the combat starts. They resolve the combat, then the warlock can rest and cast their highest level spells again, continuing the story progression without having to wait anywhere from 8 to 16 hours before they can cast their high-level spells again.

And this is from level 10 and below. Past level 11, the warlock can cast leveled spells for the duration of most combats without relying on cantrips at all.
 

Wrong. You are the one seeing an imaginary flaw because you insist on running the game according to strict rules when these same rules tell you that they don't matter. It's inconsistent to try and adhere 100% to the written rules while ignoring the spirit in which they were written, you are trying to judge these rules by the spirit of entirely different sets of rules.



And that is your perspective, not the one of their authors and the millions playing it successfully. The failure of previous editions to recognise the fact that too many interlocking rules are contrary to the openness of the game was what made them less successful, because the hurdle was way higher to try and ingest massive rulesets that, in the end always asked more questions than what they thought they solved.



And I'm being totally honest when I'm telling you that you are being totally inconsistent on your bases for argument, which makes the criticism not only totally useless but completely missing its mark. By its very design, 5e recognised that a DM is not only needed, but at the core of playing the game, and by making the job easier for him by not burdening him with an immense and complex ruleset. This is certainly part of what made the game so successful. Your "solution" of creating more rules to "help" the DM has been tried before, and with less success, because it actually does not help the DM run a successful game, and it goes contrary to the very spirit of 5e, openness, simplicity and reliance on a DM. You don't wish to improve 5e, you wish it to be a different game, based on different paradigms, it's a completely different perspective.
If your defense to the resting system is the DM has sole authority when it comes to making rulings then why would you be adamantly against talking about adjudicating a ruling about the resting system when it doesn't work for the millions of the other people that are using the system that it doesn't work for? That's edging really close to crossfire logic. Where if somebody else had a different experience in a similar circumstance the other party is obviously wrong.

You don't have to look too far to find inconsistencies with the rest system within the rules regardless of the level in which you are supporting your decisions with the rule. DM should probably be striving for consistency in ruling as well as well as fairness so you can't just waive criticisms with an appeal to the assumption that the majority of people agree that the discussion is unwarranted. Whenever I'm talking about the game with fellow DMs rest and recovery is always in the top five issues that crop up. It is the single largest toggle for adjusting tension and difficulty with absolutely zero system support. It doesn't matter how much your game focused on story or combat or running a make believe interactive economy. You can't have that much of the system with no support. And I do mean zero support there's nothing in the printed material that gives you any suggestions on how adjusting the pacing using rest one way or the other has an effect on the game. The only thing they included the half-hearted suggestion based on what work kind of for them sometimes but they don't go as far as even giving you the baseline in which they made that judgment.

For example you could have a player who chose the dream druid subclass and they have a mechanical feature based on when a rest is attempted to be started but there is no rules and when a rest is started only in it's completion. You could say that the DM will have to make a decision one way or the other and that's fair. But it's also just as fair to say that the rest system is inherently flawed for these problems to occur.
They didn't need to include pages of massive walls of text to include some supportive rules for resting. You could probably come up with a bridged cheat sheet for how it affects the game and get it in less than 40 words or even a table it actually contains useful information instead of a random generation table that they love to throw in books.
 

The question: Why does a single combat favor the wizard?
If the wizard has just the right high-level spell, they can shine pretty brightly. If they shine like that every fight, it can make other, less reliably powerful classes look worse.

But in practice, the wizard isn't the biggest benefactor of 1-fightper-day: paladins and sorcerers who know they can blow their whole load are much more powerful than intended, because they can burn those resources a lot faster.
Let's assume the warlock does not use up slots until the combat starts. They resolve the combat, then the warlock can rest and cast their highest level spells again, continuing the story progression without having to wait anywhere from 8 to 16 hours before they can cast their high-level spells again.

And this is from level 10 and below. Past level 11, the warlock can cast leveled spells for the duration of most combats without relying on cantrips at all.
That assumes the warlock can just rest after every encounter, which is inconsistent across tables. In some games they absolutely can, in other games they cannot.
 

FrogReaver

As long as i get to be the frog
The question: Why does a single combat favor the wizard?

Let's assume the warlock does not use up slots until the combat starts. They resolve the combat, then the warlock can rest and cast their highest level spells again, continuing the story progression without having to wait anywhere from 8 to 16 hours before they can cast their high-level spells again.

And this is from level 10 and below. Past level 11, the warlock can cast leveled spells for the duration of most combats without relying on cantrips at all.
  • Risk - If the warlock uses all his slots and anything unexpected happens he has no slots. If the wizard uses a 3-4 slots in a combat he still has plenty. The wizard has the opportunity to use many slots in 1-3 combats and still have enough slots in reserve for most anything unexpected that happens during his long rest rest.
  • 'Most of the time' the differences in consequences/rewards for resting 8 hours vs 1 hour is insignificant. There's just few good narratives that makes the differnece in 8 hours and 1 hour really matter.
  • Most of the best combat spells require concentration coupled with the fact that the warlocks spell list has few strong non-concentration spells coupled with the fact that his at-will option is pretty solid. Wizards on the other hand have access to fireball, blindness/deafness, shield, absorb elements, augury, animate dead, forcecage, etc.
  • Wizards just have a much better spell list overall.
  • Wizards have arcane recovery - a short rest spell recovery mechanic (not as strong as pact slots all recharging on every short rest) but it does skew slots into the wizards favor.
 

Lyxen

Great Old One
If your defense to the resting system is the DM has sole authority when it comes to making rulings then why would you be adamantly against talking about adjudicating a ruling about the resting system when it doesn't work for the millions of the other people that are using the system that it doesn't work for?

Because it works for the millions of people out there, obviously. It does not work for you because you are using the system at cross purpose, but if it was as flawed as you say, it would have been corrected by then.

That's edging really close to crossfire logic. Where if somebody else had a different experience in a similar circumstance the other party is obviously wrong.

The circumstances are not similar. I'm not forcing the game system to do something it was not designed for.

You don't have to look too far to find inconsistencies with the rest system within the rules regardless of the level in which you are supporting your decisions with the rule. DM should probably be striving for consistency in ruling as well as well as fairness

This is where you are, once again, wrong. First, consistency of the world and the story may well surpass (and indeed it does in story oriented games) consistency of rules. Moreover,, once more, 5e has "rulings over rules" because it rightly recognises that the circumstances in an open world are far more important than technical rules could be, and that there will always be difference in circumstances that might justify different local rulings. This is explained extremely well in the rules and in the SAC, but it's obviously part of the rules that you don't read because it contradicts what you expect of the game. Once more, the inconsistency here is all yours, trying to apply YOUR ideas to a system that was built along a different set of ideas.

so you can't just waive criticisms with an appeal to the assumption that the majority of people agree that the discussion is unwarranted.

Of course I can, the discussion IS unwarranted, since you are part of a minority that heavily criticises a system by applying paradigms of previous editions instead of those of the new one because you don't like them. So your criticism and the corresponding discussion is indeed unwarranted since it's based on something that only exists in your mind, not in the game as published, i.e. the 5e set of rules and another edition spirit

Whenever I'm talking about the game with fellow DMs rest and recovery is always in the top five issues that crop up.

You are only talking to like minded people. Among the DMs at our tables and all the one that I've discussed with, it certainly does not make any list, we are perfectly happy with it since our players do not try to distort it for technical reasons.

It is the single largest toggle for adjusting tension and difficulty with absolutely zero system support. It doesn't matter how much your game focused on story or combat or running a make believe interactive economy. You can't have that much of the system with no support. And I do mean zero support there's nothing in the printed material that gives you any suggestions on how adjusting the pacing using rest one way or the other has an effect on the game. The only thing they included the half-hearted suggestion based on what work kind of for them sometimes but they don't go as far as even giving you the baseline in which they made that judgment.

And that's because no support is needed if you think about it naturally and let events happen.

For example you could have a player who chose the dream druid subclass and they have a mechanical feature based on when a rest is attempted to be started but there is no rules and when a rest is started only in it's completion. You could say that the DM will have to make a decision one way or the other and that's fair. But it's also just as fair to say that the rest system is inherently flawed for these problems to occur.

And again, no, it's not, since the party does not consist only of a druid, there are other classes there, and they don't exist in a vacuum, they live in a world, with its own events and story, and no guide will EVER be able to guide you through all these elements. 5e only recognises that, and no problems occur when people are letting THESE principles guide them instead of asking themselves mechanical questions about mechanical features in isolation from the game itself.

The game is meant to be played as described, no theorised for hours by a guy trying to optimise the recovery of his druid in a complete vacuum.

They didn't need to include pages of massive walls of text to include some supportive rules for resting. You could probably come up with a bridged cheat sheet for how it affects the game and get it in less than 40 words or even a table it actually contains useful information instead of a random generation table that they love to throw in books.

Then please publish that and see how successful it is. I would certainly not buy it, I don't need it, I don't need to complicate my games and burden it for theoretical reasons. And I very much doubt that it would be a fraction as successful as a game that does not need that kind of thing to thrive, obviously.
 

I tend to purposely seek out people who disagree with me about conceptual game design because it's good for actually discovering better ways of running the game. I can make sure games using a bad system are fun but I'd rather have a fun game with a good system.

Tell me when a short rest has started when it hasn't been completed. Don't matter what flowery language you slap on whatever story you're trying to tell that's a pretty simple concept that's also important. It's extremely immersion breaking when you have to stop and work backwards to figure out something like that. there's also no way of knowing the answer. Resting is only defined based on when it's completed. Which the game doesn't support because it is an action resolution system.
You can set all the complex comparison between classes aside and go down this simple problem. You can tell yourself your games are ran so good that players are unaware of all the mechanical interactions and it might even be true but ...really? Players enjoy doing really cool stuff but it's only cool if it has limitations or else there's no point. People play these systems because there is some universal understood agreement on how the world is structured. And as you said if you don't like that there's plenty of systems out there for you that don't need these structures in place but D&D is just not one of them. If you're going to pretend a system it's going to check all the boxes you got to include all the boxes.

If the entire thread is based on the premise that people are noticing some kind of break in their understood level of balance in their game caused by inconsistencies and recovery rates and you don't have this problem then your game is obviously ran in a format that this isn't an issue. Pointing out the fact that you don't have this issue doesn't alleviate the problem. nor address it even. Saying that players shouldn't be focused on something that, based on this and other form activities, they are acutely aware of isn't helpful. If your opinion that short rest classes have no noticeable difference depending on the pacing of your game that's your opinion and it's acknowledged. I personally believe there's enough people who frequently threads that are looking for potential solutions this problem though to merit it.
 
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tetrasodium

Legend
Supporter
Epic
  • Risk - If the warlock uses all his slots and anything unexpected happens he has no slots. If the wizard uses a 3-4 slots in a combat he still has plenty. The wizard has the opportunity to use many slots in 1-3 combats and still have enough slots in reserve for most anything unexpected that happens during his long rest rest.
  • 'Most of the time' the differences in consequences/rewards for resting 8 hours vs 1 hour is insignificant. There's just few good narratives that makes the differnece in 8 hours and 1 hour really matter.
  • Most of the best combat spells require concentration coupled with the fact that the warlocks spell list has few strong non-concentration spells coupled with the fact that his at-will option is pretty solid. Wizards on the other hand have access to fireball, blindness/deafness, shield, absorb elements, augury, animate dead, forcecage, etc.
  • Wizards just have a much better spell list overall.
  • Wizards have arcane recovery - a short rest spell recovery mechanic (not as strong as pact slots all recharging on every short rest) but it does skew slots into the wizards favor.
if the warlock uses all his slots the question of what level they are is critical to the comparison because they also have (1d10+5+ [5 foot knockback])*2 3 or even 4 & that amounts to a pretty high level at will spell. When you factor in that the sorcerer who took two levels of warlock to gain a shortrest boost adding that same +5 to fireball or whatever also has that same 1d10+d+knockback*2 3 or 4 it raises the question of why the wizard is even in the comparison rather than the sorlock who traded one high level spell slot for pact magic an invisible familiar & agonizing repelling blast
 

FrogReaver

As long as i get to be the frog
But in practice, the wizard isn't the biggest benefactor of 1-fightper-day: paladins and sorcerers who know they can blow their whole load are much more powerful than intended, because they can burn those resources a lot faster.
Paladins can burn about 2 slots per turn on average and will be out of slots in 4 turns (enough to last 1 encounter at level 9).

A wizard can also burn 2 slots per turn (shield, absorb elements, counterspell).

Sorcerers don't burn slots any faster than wizards, but sorcery points are a powerful and extremely limited resource. Having them does tend to make a Sorcerer extremly powerful in a 1 encounter day. But versatility is a power in it's own right and Wizards still trounce the sorcerer there (more spells prepared and a better spell list = higher chance of having a spell that would be better than the sorcerer's fewer spells and metamagic options for a given scenario).
 
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