WotC Can we salvage Toril?

I actually don't think it's possible anymore.

There was discussion elsewhere that settings that lack certain cultural representation shouldn't use monsters as stand-ins for that culture (IE. If your setting lacks an Arabia analog, you shouldn't use genies or at least don't use them as the stand-in for that culture). In short, D&D settings good and proper cultural representation to avoid issues of appropriation or stereotyping.

Faerun is a notable example of a world with analogues to many different Earth cultures: Asia, Arabia, South American, African, Egyptian, Greek, Celtic, Norse, etc. All of it a stone's throw from their current Cash-Cow, the Sword Coast. They have a setting where they could release regional sourcebooks, done by cultural experts with proper sensitivity reading, they could be doing a regional sourcebook/MM/mini-adventure annually, filling out Faerun, adding new cultural representation, and making it all interchangeable so that a Kara-Tur Samurai and a Zakharan Sha'ir could go wander over to Baldur's Gate and fight Zariel in the latest AP module. It's a structure that serves Golarion and Pathfinder well.

But they did Tomb of Annihilation. Badly. And they got raked over the coals for having done it badly. And after that, they pretty much retreated from going beyond the Sword Coast, and increasingly seem more interested in doing "one book settings" than doing anything from Forgotten Realms. (Last year was the first year none of the hardback books featured Faerun in any meaningful way). They seem to have gained a lot of interest into settings that stand in for one particular genre (such as Ravenloft = horror, Theros = Greek myth, or Strixhaven = magical school) rather than large all-encompassing monosettings.

So right now, I wager WotC feels it's safer and more profitable for them to either leverage MTG properties (such as Kamigawa), or other properties (such as Rokugan) or even create something totally new rather than attempt to fix Kara-Tur and dredge up ghosts of OAs past. I just don't see WotC having the appetite to fix old problems if they can create something new instead.

We heard about the revisit in 2020, last heard it was going well last year at D&D celebration. 4.5 to 5 years more then enough time to drown the realms in cultural Consultants/Devs. Kamigawa MtG set had what 2 or 3 years of that.
 

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In my experience the criticisms come from multiple directions, sometimes ones that contradict each other.

The word Oriental in the title.

It is Japan focused and not all East Asia.

It applies Japanese stuff to other East Asian fantasy analogues.

It is not historically and culturally accurate enough.

It is too historically and culturally focused and not fantasy enough.

It focuses on tropes from old samurai and kung fu movies.

It feeds into tropes about East Asians.

It exoticizes Asians.

It is not integrated into normal D&D but is a separate elsewhere/other in both setting and mechanics.

It shoehorns D&Disms onto Asian fantasy concepts.

It is not a broad toolkit but has specific assumptions.

It is cultural appropriation.

It does not provide enough cultural representation.

It is cultural misrepresentation.

Among others.

It's almost like WotC should ignore Twitter and focus on making the fans of the setting and regular new players happy. Twitter distorts reality and warps it, it doesn't reflect it.
 


Remathilis

Legend
In my experience the criticisms come from multiple directions, sometimes ones that contradict each other.

The word Oriental in the title.
A term that has only recently fallen from the social lexicon when describing that region of the world. It was still considered appropriate in the 1980s and only had mild pushback in the early 2000s. Regardless, WotC hasn't been keen on reusing any names of previous books save the Core, so I'd wager any new book is safe from that term.
It is Japan focused and not all East Asia.

It applies Japanese stuff to other East Asian fantasy analogues.
This is like saying "D&D is focused on Medieval England but has elements of other European cultures". Yes, the original OA leaned a little heavy on Japan, but at the time Japan had far more cultural exchange with the west than China, Korea and the like: the "War on Communism" was happening in the 80's and Japan was viewed as a good little capitalist ally. By the time 3e came around, they specifically used a popular Japanese-inspired setting with support for legacy OA elements.

It is not historically and culturally accurate enough.

It is too historically and culturally focused and not fantasy enough.
D&D isn't a history lesson. D&D assumes a world that is vaguely Medieval, but features Rennaissance-level technology, Age of Exploration-level social movement, and pre-Christian Paganism. It assumed a gladiator, a Caribbean pirate, a Celtic Druid and a Viking Berserker can all form an adventuring party.

As to the second, I cannot take seriously that either OA isn't fantasy enough.
It focuses on tropes from old samurai and kung fu movies.

It feeds into tropes about East Asians.
Yup. That was what was popular in 1980. Kurosawa and Bruce Lee was what Westerners expected of an Asian setting. Come 3e, things had move to incorporate more elements imported from Eastern culture like Anime and Wuxia.
But guess what? D&D focuses on tropes from western pop culture. Eberron is built around pulp and noir, Ravenloft gothic horror. Part of genre is genre tropes.
It is not integrated into normal D&D but is a separate elsewhere/other in both setting and mechanics.

It shoehorns D&Disms onto Asian fantasy concepts.
1e OA attempted to create an "alternative" D&D that was separate but compatible. By 3e, they learned thier lesson and nearly all the mechanics for it were in line with the d20 norms. As for separation, it IS a different region of the world, not just a kingdom you dump anywhere. Regardless, Kara-Tur was firmly established in Faerun and can be accessed by foot, steed, or spell, while Rokugan was a separate setting akin to Theros and Ravnica.

As for shoehorning D&Disms, ITS $#@&ing D&D! Of course it's going shoehorn the game into the setting. This is like getting upset that Ravenloft "shoehorns D&Dism into horror concepts" It's for playing D&D with horror tropes or playing D&D in an Asian setting.

By this logic, the only way to play different genres is to create whole new game systems to accommodate them.
It is not a broad toolkit but has specific assumptions.
So, it's a setting, like how AD&D 1e assumed specific assumptions based around the Greyhawk setting. 3e OA specifically WAS a toolkit however, presenting Rokugan as the default assumption but providing lots of things that weren't based out of Legend of the Five Rings and even gave a quick "1 page" description of how you could assemble parts of it to create a SE Asian-inspired setting. 3e OA gives you two unique examples and plenty of parts to make your own.

But sure, it wasn't a toolkit.
It is cultural appropriation.

It does not provide enough cultural representation.

It is cultural misrepresentation.
D&D has co-opted the Celtic druid and banshee, Norse giants, dozens of Greek monsters, Egyptian mummies, Romanian vampires, the whole pantheons of the Celts, Norse, Egyptian and Greek myths, Arabian genies, Japanese oni, Indian raksasha, and the Shaolin monk and crammed all of that into a boiling soup of a setting called "Core D&D". D&D doesn't appropriate culture, it mugs cultures in dark allys and roots through their pockets for spare mythology. It frequently has gotten things wrong (Hello Druids) and let that fester for decades. It's what D&D does.

1e OA made some mistakes. 3e was an improvement but could do better. But many of these criticisms strike the core of what a setting in D&D is, and they could equally be applied to most any setting or genre book.

EDIT: I want to make clear this isn't directly aimed at Voadam, but at the criticisms that were levied at OA.
 

This is like saying "D&D is focused on Medieval England but has elements of other European cultures". Yes, the original OA leaned a little heavy on Japan, but at the time Japan had far more cultural exchange with the west than China, Korea and the like: the "War on Communism" was happening in the 80's and Japan was viewed as a good little capitalist ally. By the time 3e came around, they specifically used a popular Japanese-inspired setting with support for legacy OA elements.
A big part of the issue is it just didn't make sense. The class structure was built around feudal concepts from the Sengoku and Shogunate period in Japan but assumed to apply to what was also a clear Imperial China Expy.

It's a bit like having a Knight class for a game that was meant to encompass not just medieval western Europe but also say Viking age Scandinavia.

Whereas with Rokugan at least the huge empire is explicitly a Japanese style empire.
 

Remathilis

Legend
A big part of the issue is it just didn't make sense. The class structure was built around feudal concepts from the Sengoku and Shogunate period in Japan but assumed to apply to what was also a clear Imperial China Expy.

It's a bit like having a Knight class for a game that was meant to encompass not just medieval western Europe but also say Viking age Scandinavia.

Whereas with Rokugan at least the huge empire is explicitly a Japanese style empire.
You mean, like the 3e knight class. Or the Cavalier if you want to back to AD&D roots. Or even the Paladin. Or having a Knight-Templar serving as a priest of Thor. It's like D&D is an amalgam of Rule of Cool and tropes with no clear thought as to how those elements go together culturally, historically, or thematically.
 

You mean, like the 3e knight class. Or the Cavalier if you want to back to AD&D roots. Or even the Paladin. Or having a Knight-Templar serving as a priest of Thor. It's like D&D is an amalgam of Rule of Cool and tropes with no clear thought as to how those elements go together culturally, historically, or thematically.
The context of Oriental Adventures was clearly different though. It presented a setting much more closely rooted in historical parallels than typical D&D, and it presented new classes with the express purpose of them being more appropriate to the setting.

If we follow the logic of what you're saying here they should never have needed to make new classes at all should they? If a Samurai is fine in Imperial China expy then why not a Paladin or a Cavalier?

The game was telling us two things at once: Paladins and Cavaliers and Rangers were not appropriate for your China game, but Samurai are!
 

Remathilis

Legend
The context of Oriental Adventures was clearly different though. It presented a setting much more closely rooted in historical parallels than typical D&D, and it presented new classes with the express purpose of them being more appropriate to the setting.

If we follow the logic of what you're saying here they should never have needed to make new classes at all should they? If a Samurai is fine in Imperial China expy then why not a Paladin or a Cavalier?

The game was telling us two things at once: Paladins and Cavaliers and Rangers were not appropriate for your China game, but Samurai are!
Theros is a setting rooted in Ancient Greek myths, including analogs to Athens and Sparta. It also contains monks, druids, paladins, full plate, crossbows and rapiers.

Historical accuracy and D&D are so far apart from one another they might as well be on opposite ends of the multiverse.
 

Theros is a setting rooted in Ancient Greek myths, including analogs to Athens and Sparta. It also contains monks, druids, paladins, full plate, crossbows and rapiers.

Historical accuracy and D&D are so far apart from one another they might as well be on opposite ends of the multiverse.
Whose talking about historical accuracy?
We were talking about whether a specifically Japanese class set (not a generic set pulled from a whole range of cultures) was appropriate for the entire East.

I take it that as you are trying to shift the discussion to something else you are conceding that it's not.
 

Remathilis

Legend
Whose talking about historical accuracy?
We were talking about whether a specifically Japanese class set (not a generic set pulled from a whole range of cultures) was appropriate for the entire East.

I take it that as you are trying to shift the discussion to something else you are conceding that it's not.
I'm pointing out that samurai in OA are as appropriate as druids are in Theros. It's a cultural outlier that is fine because it's not trying to be historically or culturally accurate, but an amalgam of different tropes and myth smashed together.

If there is any problem, its not that samurai exist, but that other Asian myths beyond Japanese didn't get codified into classes like bard, druid or ranger did. A larger collection to pick from or toss into the collective soup pot.

It's moot now though, samurai is a generic subclass of fighter in Xanathar, as available on Theros as it is in Kara-Tur.
 

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