Joss Whedon Allegations: The Undoing of the "Buffy" Creator

[MGibster]

This is probably my least favorite part of any fandom/nerd-community.

My theory is that when people become part of a fandom, or as you put it nerd-community, it's part of their core identity. And anything associated with that fandom will have a much deeper significance to those people than simply being something they enjoy. When Firefly was still on the air, I had several friends who really, really got into it and I couldn't have a conversation with any of these people for very long before the conversation steered towards Firefly and it was bloody annoying. It was a big part of their lives and they networked with other "Browncoats," as the fans referred to themselves, and actually built a lot of social connections they still have to this day.

And this is different from people who simply like a show, book, game, or whatever. When something is tied up in our identities, we tend to defend it when aspects are criticized. I thought myself immune to such things, but as a graduate student I remember getting into a discussion with an Englishman where he asserted that colonist had no justification for their little rebellion, which, as an American, kind of struck a nerve.

Pictured below: Two graduate students discussing the finer points of the Stamp Act and the legitimacy of the British Parliament to govern the American colonies.

 

[Umbran]

What do you think of this painting?

Mod Note:
I think it qualifies as trolling.

Time for you to take a break from the discussion.

 

[doctorbadwolf]

true, but I feel like I must treat people with some modicum of respect and assumption of innocence. Which also means that if I miss the news report where they killed folks, I'm clueless.

And just to comment on this fragment below, which I cannot get my cursor to go beneath... While I agree with the direction of the rest of the good doctor's post, this aspect has some weaksauce. Getting paid residuals for past work is part of Hollywood compensation package. For some, as they age out, it may be their only compensation. So I would not presume that people who worked 20 years ago on a show, don't need the money from you buying the boxed set NOW because they can still work. Maybe they can't.

I don’t think that Buffy is still selling enough boxed sets at this point to make anyone’s living, and very few people work on just the one show, ever.

But either way, “what about the other people who make a living from the thing” isn’t a strong argument against holding creators accountable.

Besides which, no one is ever obligated to buy a particular product.

 

[Dire Bare]

I don’t think that Buffy is still selling enough boxed sets at this point to make anyone’s living, and very few people work on just the one show, ever.

But either way, “what about the other people who make a living from the thing” isn’t a strong argument against holding creators accountable.

Besides which, no one is ever obligated to buy a particular product.

Part of the tragedy of misbehavior in Hollywood is that it impacts more than the abused and the abuser . . . but also just about everyone involved in their projects to varying degrees. Everyone involved in Buffy the Vampire Slayer is losing out here, even if only a bit if their involvement was minimal or just because it was so long ago.

I totally respect anyone who decides to boycott Whedon and all of his projects going forward. I also respect those who decide to separate the creator from the creation and continue their love of Buffy, Firefly, or what-have-you. And there are those like me, who aren't boycotting anything but our motivation to revisit old loves has dropped significantly.

I still love Buffy the Vampire Slayer for the pioneering and enjoyable show it was, and I take comfort that while Whedon's writing was a part of that, so was the acting of the incredible cast he managed to snag. I'll watch Buffy again someday for Sarah Michelle Gellar, David Boreanz, Alyson Hanigan, and the rest of that amazing troupe of performers. But, like others have said, I imagine the show will hit differently, and I'm in no rush to start my Buffy re-watch anytime soon.

There are other creators I've enjoyed in the past who I just can't anymore. Others where I'll need some time, and others yet where my enjoyment didn't skip more than a beat or too . . . . How I react to any given piece of art and the artist behind it will vary because . . . life, people, and art are complicated.

 

[CleverNickName]

As an aside, I'd like to point that in the past, Hollywood had "fixers" who would deal with issues like sexism and other "unpleasantness" Joseph Edgar Allen John "Eddie" Mannix for example, but now the only thing holding back any actual stories/allegations isn't much.

I would consider that progress.

 

[Dire Bare]

No, there aren’t. Artists, certainly. In every single genre. But no whole genres.

I'll disagree with this point.

Each artist is responsible for their own work and behavior, regardless of the genre they create within. But there are definitely genres that encourage bad behavior in artists, to the point where some artists take on terrible behaviors they wouldn't otherwise to gain cred within an industry or fandom.

Gangster rap is a great example. A genre born out of oppression, poverty and dysfunction, that has given us some amazing art, but a genre rife with misogyny, material greed, and the promotion of style over substance. Not every artist within the genre is guilty of those sins, but the list is much shorter than those who are. This isn't my judgement against the genre, I used to listen to a lot of it, and still love some of the classics . . . and I realize that it is a reflection of the reality the original artists lived within . . . but, I have a hard time listening to a lot of it today, now that I'm older and more aware.

 

[Umbran]

Gangster rap is a great example. A genre born out of oppression, poverty and dysfunction, that has given us some amazing art, but a genre rife with misogyny, material greed, and the promotion of style over substance. Not every artist within the genre is guilty of those sins, but the list is much shorter than those who are.

And you blame that on the genre, and not on the oppression, poverty, and dysfunction?

 

[MGibster]

Part of the tragedy of misbehavior in Hollywood is that it impacts more than the abused and the abuser . . . but also just about everyone involved in their projects to varying degrees. Everyone involved in Buffy the Vampire Slayer is losing out here, even if only a bit if their involvement was minimal or just because it was so long ago.

I suspect this is one of the reasons why bad behavior is often tolerated for so many years. Not just in Hollywood but at work, social clubs, political parties, and within other organizations.

 

[Dire Bare]

And you blame that on the genre, and not on the oppression, poverty, and dysfunction?

I don't blame it on the genre itself, no. Tried to make that clear in my post, sorry if I did not.

And I also don't blame even the individual artists within the genre who use those tropes often, while they are responsible for their choices and their art, are heavily influenced by their upbringing and culture, and the genre itself (if they came into the genre after it was established, that is).

The genre is a reflection of the culture it sprung from, or perhaps better yet, how that oppressed culture has been (and still is) treated by the mainstream culture. Yet, the genre is still rife with the tropes of misogyny, violence, and materialism. It's not a judgement, but an observation.

And of course, gangster rap doesn't consist of solely negative tropes, there's a lot of strength, rebellion, and independence in those songs. I actually have more respect for some of the early gangster rap pioneers than I did when I was young and listening to them for the first time, both for their artistry and their struggle to make it happen.

I was a white, suburban, middle-class kid in the 80s when rap exploded into the mainstream and for a while it was my jam. I found the violence and cursing edgy . . . but didn't really understand the misogyny and materialism, or where this music was coming from or why it was the way it was. Now that I'm older, I realize that I was never a part of the culture that gave birth to this genre, but the negative tropes bother me now and I have a hard time going back to some of my favorite albums from those days.

And there are plenty within the hip-hop/rap community who are uncomfortable with those tropes as well. It's not just suburban white guys like me.

 

[MGibster]

And you blame that on the genre, and not on the oppression, poverty, and dysfunction?

I'm not really sure to be honest. There's a point where it's sometimes hard to tell how much art is being influenced by the real world versus how much the real world is influencing the art. For whatever reason, rappers were expected to "life the life" as it were. When Steve Earle sang about growing pot illegally and setting up booby traps for the DEA in "Copperhead Road," none of us really expected Earle to be living that life. We expected Biggie Smalls, Tupak Shakur, and Snoop Dogg to live the life though because that's kind of how gangsta rap was sold to us. It made it more authentic I guess.