D&D General I really LOVE Stomping Goblins

[Micah Sweet]

I find peoples attachment to killing goblins or orcs by the score for no reason somewhat weird, not from any great love of goblins or concern for sentient creatures, but for the insistence that it must always forever be goblins, orc and kobolds. After a couple decades at this, seems like you’d be bored of them and their rather well understood habits and be very accepting of their surrender and integration into the general populace, ready to move on to new, heretofore undiscovered, cave and dungeon dwellers.

That's why the Wheel of Time used trollocs. And they were genetically engineered soulless monsters to boot!

 

[Umbran]

I simply accept that games are not real. Has nothing to do with real world morality.

So, every fiction ever written is "not real." Do you want to assert that not a single one of them has anything to do with real-world morality?

I mean, that's going to be a hard sell, given how much we use fiction to teach morality. But you can give it a shot, I guess. Your various English and Literature teachers would probably be very disappointed in you if you try, though.

 

[Scribe]

But you can give it a shot, I guess. Your various English and Literature teachers would probably be very disappointed in you if you try, though.

Considering he said Games, and not Literature which could be of a religious (LOL should we go Old Testament?), philosophical, or moral nature...

I cant think of a game where you are readily tasked with the removal of dozens if not hundreds (or indeed THOUSANDS) of obstacles I mean enemies, who's programmed purpose in the GAME, is to likely KILL YOU, that has an expressed intention of posing a philosophical question of morality.

The one that most jumps to mind is maybe Black and White, or Fable?

I certainly have not lost sleep over the hordes of enemies I've cut down in Diablo.

"Sometimes, a cigar, is just a cigar."

We dont need to moralize everything, and that expressly is NOT the reading of the OP that I would have gone with.

 

[Malmuria]

Considering he said Games, and not Literature which could be of a religious (LOL should we go Old Testament?), philosophical, or moral nature...

I cant think of a game where you are readily tasked with the removal of dozens if not hundreds (or indeed THOUSANDS) of obstacles I mean enemies, who's programmed purpose in the GAME, is to likely KILL YOU, that has an expressed intention of posing a philosophical question of morality.

The one that most jumps to mind is maybe Black and White, or Fable?

I certainly have not lost sleep over the hordes of enemies I've cut down in Diablo.

"Sometimes, a cigar, is just a cigar."

We dont need to moralize everything, and that expressly is NOT the reading of the OP that I would have gone with.

And when I play chess I don't mourn the fallen pawns. But then, chess isn't a role playing game in which you play an agile and deadly queen.

 

[Kurotowa]

So, every fiction ever written is "not real." Do you want to assert that not a single one of them has anything to do with real-world morality?

I mean, that's going to be a hard sell, given how much we use fiction to teach morality. But you can give it a shot, I guess. Your various English and Literature teachers would probably be very disappointed in you if you try, though.

Well obviously words aren't real. If someone's saying cruel things to you or spreading hurtful rumors, just ignore them! It's not bullying unless they put their hands on you. /sarcasm

Rather than get caught in the same argument loops as usual, let me tell a real life story about how D&D changed a man's life.

About 20 years ago, I was in a campaign with a younger guy, I think in his last year of High School. Messed up home life, angry and edgy, not uncommon for a teenager. Well the DM basically dared him to play against type for this campaign and got him to roll up a Paladin. And then the DM threw a bunch of interesting moral quandaries at him. Not no win situations, but pitting the Lawful solution against the Good solution and accepting whatever the player decided as he struggled to figure out how to best live up to his Paladin code. The player dove all in the way in on working through those dilemmas, actually thinking about what it all meant, he said it was a life changing experience. Ten years later he was a police officer and I don't think that would have happened without him playing that Paladin.

Fiction is the testing simulation for real life. It's where we go to experiment with morality and philosophy under controlled conditions or specific circumstances. And yes, it's also entertainment. But it's not just for entertainment. Because it's not just a mask you can put on or take off at will. It's a training room for how you think about the world. And a lot of us are making the deliberate choice to put aside having groups of people you can kill on sight for reasons of birth, rather than because they're bandits or slavers or demon cultists. That's not who we want to be, and so we're changing how we play.

 

[Scribe]

And when I play chess I don't mourn the fallen pawns. But then, chess isn't a role playing game in which you play an agile and deadly queen.

And?

You all are pulling out strawman argument, repeatedly.

Go read the OP again. It's not saying you have to agree. Its not saying its the only way. Its not saying its the ONLY goal of D&D, not in the least.

Sometimes, the OP wants to just slay some Goblins, and kick back and do it.
Sometimes, I just want to fire up Diablo, and cleave through some enemies.
Sometimes, I want to load up Total War, and yes, thats going to kill 10's of Thousands in a session.

And sometimes, I'm going to play an RPG, kick in a door, and we are going to go to town on some bad guys, and if they are fodder Demons, fodder Goblins, or fodder cultists, simply doesnt matter.

And SOMETIMES, I want to debate the morality and underpinning alignment system of the RPG universe.

This thread, is about kicking in doors, and slaying Goblins.

And there is nothing wrong with it.

 

[Bill Zebub]

You don't have to sacrifice story, but sometimes it's nice not having to be thoroughly invested in one. Sometimes you just want to go into a dungeon, kill things, and take their loot.

On the contrary, sometimes I want to be immersed in the story.

But most of the time I really just want to go into a dungeon, kill things, and take their loot.

 

[Bill Zebub]

Well obviously words aren't real. If someone's saying cruel things to you or spreading hurtful rumors, just ignore them! It's not bullying unless they put their hands on you. /sarcasm

Rather than get caught in the same argument loops as usual, let me tell a real life story about how D&D changed a man's life.

About 20 years ago, I was in a campaign with a younger guy, I think in his last year of High School. Messed up home life, angry and edgy, not uncommon for a teenager. Well the DM basically dared him to play against type for this campaign and got him to roll up a Paladin. And then the DM threw a bunch of interesting moral quandaries at him. Not no win situations, but pitting the Lawful solution against the Good solution and accepting whatever the player decided as he struggled to figure out how to best live up to his Paladin code. The player dove all in the way in on working through those dilemmas, actually thinking about what it all meant, he said it was a life changing experience. Ten years later he was a police officer and I don't think that would have happened without him playing that Paladin.

Wait, I think I know the guy you mean. He was in the movie Garden State, right?

(In case that was too opaque, I was trying to make the point that cops come in all flavors.)

 

[Kurotowa]

Wait, I think I know the guy you mean. He was in the movie Garden State, right?

(In case that was too opaque, I was trying to make the point that cops come in all flavors.)

I haven't seen him in person since I moved cross country 14 years ago, so I can't testify as to what flavor of cop he is. All I have is a few second hand updates on his life. But it's an example of how a campaign changed the course of a man's life, rather than the endless "Nuh uh!" "Uh huh!" back and forth about if things we do in game mean anything in real life.

 

[Levistus's_Leviathan]

Goblins are, in most modern iterations, full of chaotic energy, psychotic personalities and highly entertaining tactics and gadgets to compensate for their small stature.

(emphasis mine)

I've been lurking in this thread for a bit, not posting because I didn't think it would be constructive and I inherently disagree with the premise in fundamental ways, but this statement caught my eye.

Are you sure about that? Maybe you and I have different definitions of the word "modern", but from what I've seen, most Goblins in modern fantasy settings (at least D&D ones) have at least some aspect of cultural complexity. The Dhakaani Goblinoids from Eberron, the Kryn Dynasty's Goblinoids, the Goblins of Ravnica, and so on.

In my view, the absolute opposite has happened. Goblins (and their relatives; hobgoblins and bugbears) are more likely to be morally nuanced in modern iterations of the fantasy creatures than not. Even Harry Potter, whose goblins are still a . . . contentious topic, to say the least, has Goblins not be "kill-on-sight monsters".