D&D General Source Material: "The Knight of the Swords" by Michael Moorcock

[Lyxen]

I think you may have read/remembered the ones that don't contradict your own values. The later Corum stories go into the downsides of Law.

Hmmm. It's not a question of my personal values here, especially in the terms in which you word them. And I don't have that memory about the second cycle of Corum, where Chaos is still very much the enemy, and Law does not appear at all.

Also note that you can be evil and fair, or good and sly.

Well, Arioch is fair, but the evil is obvious all the time, and the lords of Law always act good and noble.

The Dreamthief's Daughter, some of the Jerry Cornelius stories.

Never read the first one, it's apparently fairly recent and are you sure that Law is the nazis in that one ? From the summaries I've read, it's not the case, Gaynor is allied with the nazis and he's always been an agent of Chaos.

As for Jerry Cornelius, it's a huge mess, and I don't recall strong links with Law and Chaos, but I might be completely wrong.

 

[Paul Farquhar]

As Nazism engulfs the Fatherland, the albino Ulric von Bek, last Count of Bek, battles to keep the dark sword Ravenbrand from being taken by Adolf Hitler...

As an unhuman army engulfs Tanelorn, the albino Elric, last sorcerer-king of Melniboné, fights to keep the black sword Stormbringer from being taken by Gaynor the Damned...

They both fail. Now, their destinies suddenly entwined with that of Oona, the mysterious Dreamthief's Daughter, Elric and von Bek must become one hero. For the entire Multiverse will be destroyed--unless Elric can summon his dragon kin across space and time to the Battle of Britain, and show the Third Reich what hell on earth truly means...

And a god of Law is behind it all. I know because I read it last year. And it's not the only example of Law being "evil". Chaos is always evil, because good = Balance.

Jerry Cornelius goes everywhere, including the Whoniverse. The Coming of the Terraphiles - Wikipedia

 

[Lycurgon]

From that I have read, it isn't Moorcocks work that Gygax got his Alignment ideas from but in fact Poul Anderson's Three Hearts and Three Lions novel. It is also the novel that D&D Trolls are taken from.

 

[Paul Farquhar]

From that I have read, it isn't Moorcocks work that Gygax got his Alignment ideas from but in fact Poul Anderson's Three Hearts and Three Lions novel. It is also the novel that D&D Trolls are taken from.

It's a bit of both. Just like the hand and eye of Vecna aren't exactly the hand and eye of Corum. Creation is taking a bunch of different influences and remixing them.

 

[Voadam]

I read a bunch of Elric novels in the 90s, they were a lot of fun, high powered Dark Fantasy.

I feel they fit in well with the attitudes of older D&D.

 

[Scribe]

I always saw ultimate law as stasis.

 

[Hexmage-EN]

Since Law and Chaos came up, I figure this may interest someone:

The Known World (which later became Mystara) from the BECMI editions of D&D from 1983-90 started as Tom Moldvay’s and Lawrence Schick’s own campaign which ran from about 1976-1979. Bill Wilkerson, a player of those games saved the Moldvay-era OD&D house rules from then, as well as his own overview of the Imirrhosian Continent, which have been scanned and formatted into OD&D booklets by Designers & Dragons author Shannon Appelcline.

Bill Wilkerson's Original Known World documents - Google Drive

drive.google.com

The section on "The Prime Alignments" describes "High Law" and "High Chaos" thusly:

ABSOLUTE ORDER (High Law) - The only tolerable form of existence is with everything in order and in its place. It is necessary that uniformity be imposed upon the world so that perfect control of all actions can be accomplished, thus eliminating all disruption and discontent.

ABSOLUTE RANDOMNESS (High Chaos) - The ideal is the co-existence of all possibilities, which will come about when the bonds of Law (and Time, which is a Lawful concept) are broken. The ultimate goal is a return to that condition of total randomness that supposedly existed before the imposition of Law.

 

[bpauls]

Can't quite remember but what effect does " too much Law" do to the world? I guess it stifles thought and creation??

In this book, Corum's familiarity with both Chaos and Law is quite rudimentary. Neither are mentioned until about 80% into the text, in a conversation with another character, who introduces him to the concepts. The same character states "I believe that such notions as 'good' and 'evil' don't exist for the Chaos Lords." Following this, Corum has a vision of the banners of Law and Chaos, with the Balance ruling over them, and a voice explaining that neither can be allowed to dominate the realms of mortals.

Later in the series, Corum muses on the reasons Law must prevail, which IIRC have something to do with providing an ordered world that can support the wellbeing of mortals--but by that point he has been clearly established as a champion of Law, and therefore a partisan.

My personal takeaway from The Swords Trilogy is that Chaos thrives on an addiction to creativity and the "new", without regard for the fates of its own creations, while Law provides a natural order necessary for its creations to survive and flourish. While we are told either side can go too far, Corum never sees this eventuality as it relates to Law.

I am still reading the second trilogy, so I can't say how this plays out in those books.

 

[Maxperson]

Honestly, from what I remember about the Moorcock books (in general, not that one in particular), there is little linked to the rules, combat in particular is not really detailed. However, I'm pretty sure that the Law vs. Chaos theme is what started the alignment chart of early D&D, and was kept on in AD&D.

Moorcock influenced law, chaos and neutrality(balance) in D&D. I'd also bet that the Sword of Life Stealing was based in large part on Stormbringer and Mournblade.

 

[Maxperson]

Can't quite remember but what effect does " too much Law" do to the world? I guess it stifles thought and creation??

Yes. It caused stagnation, which was bad. Balance was where the multiverse wanted to be, so it created the Eternal Champion to ensure it.