D&D General Source Material: "The Knight of the Swords" by Michael Moorcock

[Lyxen]

Sounds like you may have juxtaposed your belief system onto your memories.

I don't think so, I think I forged my fantasy belief system on Moorcock's cosmology. So if you disagree, please show me examples of Lord of Chaos that are not evil, and examples of Lord of Law which are not good. And I mean in the original books, not the recent ones.

Also, in D&D, just look at the types of creatures linked to alignments:

• Lawful: Patriarch, Treant, Unicorns, Pegasi, etc.
• Chaotic: Evil High Priest, Goblins/Kobolds, Hobgoblin,/Gnolls, Orcs, Ogres, Ghouls, Wraiths, Mummies, Spectres, Vampire, Medusae, Manticores, Gorgons, Chimerae, etc.

This is from OD&D. So while I agree that there is no clear Law=Good and Chaos=Evil, just look at the lists above and explain to me that there is not a huge tendency ?

And this is why I really prefer the two axis alignment system of AD&D, since it's much easier to envision great cases like LE and CG.

 

[Rogerd1]

Lords of Law and Chaos were both fallen Angel's IIRC and could be made by other Angel's. Unfortunately this cheapened the law and chaos duality for me.

 

[Lyxen]

is a comparison video

My god, ONE HOUR of this **** ? Moreover, I suspect that this mostly about the later books of Elric, since for the few seconds that I managed to endure, she spoke about a character that I'd never heard about and comparing it to Dandelion. Honestly, unless someone is willing to show me a summary, there is no way I will endure her...

 

[Paul Farquhar]

Also, in D&D, just look at the types of creatures linked to alignments:

• Lawful: Patriarch, Treant, Unicorns, Pegasi, etc.
• Chaotic: Evil High Priest, Goblins/Kobolds, Hobgoblin,/Gnolls, Orcs, Ogres, Ghouls, Wraiths, Mummies, Spectres, Vampire, Medusae, Manticores, Gorgons, Chimerae, etc.

This is from OD&D. So while I agree that there is no clear Law=Good and Chaos=Evil, just look at the lists above and explain to me that there is not a huge tendency ?

This is because OD&D originated in the essentially lawful culture of the American bible belt, where lawfulness and goodness are equated. As least some of those people read Moorcock without really understanding it's British cynicism.

 

[Ruin Explorer]

I always saw ultimate law as stasis.

So does Moorcock, total law is described exactly that way, with either an ice metaphor or literal ice in one of the books.

I would slightly disagree with Paul I'm that I'd say it's more Law = Totalitarianism (of which fascism is a subset) and Chaos = Anarchism but that may be semantics. Either way balance is seen as the eventual way forward. Chaos tends to be the antagonist a bit more often I think in part because it's simply more fun as an antagonist, but Moorcock's books are riddled with huge evil highly organized empires which the protagonist must combat.

 

[Ruin Explorer]

My god, ONE HOUR of this **** ? Moreover, I suspect that this mostly about the later books of Elric, since for the few seconds that I managed to endure, she spoke about a character that I'd never heard about and comparing it to Dandelion. Honestly, unless someone is willing to show me a summary, there is no way I will endure her...

It's an old discussion. Basically Geralt shares a significant number of unusual traits with Elric, from being referred to as "The White Wolf" to being essentially albino to relying on potions. If you Google their names together you'll find more detailed stuff.

Personally I think it's just normal broad inspiration, IE Sapkowski read Elric long before and unconsciously reused certain elements for a different character. He's hardly the first or last Elric like characters in fiction, from Malus Darkblade to Anomander Rake (the latter being basically a 14 year olds attempt to out Elric Elric).

 

[Mind of tempest]

It's an old discussion. Basically Geralt shares a significant number of unusual traits with Elric, from being referred to as "The White Wolf" to being essentially albino to relying on potions. If you Google their names together you'll find more detailed stuff.

Personally I think it's just normal broad inspiration, IE Sapkowski read Elric long before and unconsciously reused certain elements for a different character. He's hardly the first or last Elric like characters in fiction, from Malus Darkblade to Anomander Rake (the latter being basically a 14 year olds attempt to out Elric Elric).

okay, who is the latter even from?

 

[Lyxen]

okay, who is the latter even from?

If you have not heard about the Malazan Book of the Fallen, it’s a lucky day for you. It’s not an easy read, you are dropped right in the middle of a 300 000 years (yes, it’s crazy) struggle between primal forces, gods, heroes and simple men, and discover everything from the inside with very few pointers and characters with many names and many faces.

but it’s also an incredible saga, with fantastic characters that you’ll learn to love and hate, but also to change your opinion on as even their most controversial actions are usually rightly motivated if you consider their point of view.

Just launch yourself with Gardens of the Moon and discover the Bridgeburners, your fantasy will be changed forever. Just be aware that it’s both heroic but also very gritty, on par or even worse than the Black Company.

 

[Lyxen]

It's an old discussion. Basically Geralt shares a significant number of unusual traits with Elric, from being referred to as "The White Wolf" to being essentially albino to relying on potions. If you Google their names together you'll find more detailed stuff.

Thanks, I’ll have a look, but while I agree about the name of White Wolf, Geralt is certainly not an albino, and potions don’t even relate to what Elric is doing.

Personally I think it's just normal broad inspiration, IE Sapkowski read Elric long before and unconsciously reused certain elements for a different character. He's hardly the first or last Elric like characters in fiction, from Malus Darkblade to Anomander Rake (the latter being basically a 14 year olds attempt to out Elric Elric).

Hmmm, it’s interesting about Anomander Rake, for me there are way more similarities to Elric than Geralt, and at the same time it’s such a strong and interesting character, and his sword is in a sense even more interesting than Stormbringer.

 

[Lyxen]

This is because OD&D originated in the essentially lawful culture of the American bible belt, where lawfulness and goodness are equated. As least some of those people read Moorcock without really understanding it's British cynicism.

While I agree about OD&D, still the fact remains that in the original Elric and the rest of the Eternal Champion, while Balance is an aim, it’s also fairly neutral and ruthless, and quite impersonal, while Chaos is clearly evil and Law clearly good, unless pushed to ultimate stasis.