D&D General Source Material: "The Knight of the Swords" by Michael Moorcock

[GreyLord]

It's been forever since I read that book. Nothing to add to the conversation presently, except that I read that book several decades ago. Gosh, it's been a long time.

Have the Eternal Champion series on my bookshelf. They aren't the original smaller books, but a set of books that were omnibus collections of different series (I believe there are 16 of them) that collect the entire round of Eternal Champion books into one big bookshelf of Omnibus books. (It has 4 Elric books, Hawkmoon, 2 Corum books, etc).

I should read them someday again...when I have more time and I am not reading something else.

 

[Ruin Explorer]

Thanks, I’ll have a look, but while I agree about the name of White Wolf, Geralt is certainly not an albino, and potions don’t even relate to what Elric is doing.

Potions are what kept Elric alive prior to Stormbringer life-draining stuff for him, and he still has to use them in some of the stories. But they're not the focus the way they are in Witcher. Geralt isn't albino, technically, but he has pale skin and white hair and unusually-coloured eyes, so he's pretty close. Anyway I still think subconscious inspiration myself.

Hmmm, it’s interesting about Anomander Rake, for me there are way more similarities to Elric than Geralt, and at the same time it’s such a strong and interesting character, and his sword is in a sense even more interesting than Stormbringer.

I mean, I am 99% sure Anomander Rake's origin, in the RPG campaign (first in AD&D1E, then in GURPS) which created most of the lore of Malazan, was basically "Elric is cool, but I want to be like Elric, only more awesomer", where "awesomer" was determined by a boy aged 13-16, so we have Drow (just like Elric is an "dark elf" effectively - the Melniboneans inspired both the Drow and the Dark Elves of Warhammer - particularly the latter), but who is built like a WWE wrestler on heavy steroids (instead of lithe/wiry, because that's insufficiently "awesome"), who has a sword that is, yes, as you say, like Stormbringer, only better and far more powerful, and it's a huge-ass Buster-sword-style oversized weapon, not a normal 2h sword like Elric, and also Anomander Rake can turn into a super-dragon, because dragons are cool and he's the most powerful one, and also Anomander Rake has a flying fortress, not just a landship.

Quite a number of the non-Bridgeburner characters in Malazan are basically "what a teen or very early 20s nerdy dude would think was super-awesome", whereas the Bridgeburners etc. seem to have been written by a grown-up (presumably the author). I do respect that despite his ludicrous elements Erikson tries to give Rake a decent personality and he ends up surprisingly good as a character (unlike say, Tehol Beddict or Icarium).

Somehow it still works out that the series has some pretty incredible lore. I think the story eventually falls to pieces, but it's still a hell of thing.

 

[Lyxen]

Potions are what kept Elric alive prior to Stormbringer life-draining stuff for him, and he still has to use them in some of the stories. But they're not the focus the way they are in Witcher. Geralt isn't albino, technically, but he has pale skin and white hair and unusually-coloured eyes, so he's pretty close. Anyway I still think subconscious inspiration myself.

It's possible that there is indeed some inspiration there, but Geralt is bulky, Elric is slender, and the potions that he uses are just to counter his albinism, whereas Geralt has a wide variety, a true alchemist. Elric is also a really powerful wizard, Geralt's magic is very specialised. And their behaviour is very different too.

I mean, I am 99% sure Anomander Rake's origin, in the RPG campaign (first in AD&D1E, then in GURPS) which created most of the lore of Malazan, was basically "Elric is cool, but I want to be like Elric, only more awesomer", where "awesomer" was determined by a boy aged 13-16, so we have Drow (just like Elric is an "dark elf" effectively - the Melniboneans inspired both the Drow and the Dark Elves of Warhammer - particularly the latter), but who is built like a WWE wrestler on heavy steroids (instead of lithe/wiry, because that's insufficiently "awesome"), who has a sword that is, yes, as you say, like Stormbringer, only better and far more powerful, and it's a huge-ass Buster-sword-style oversized weapon, not a normal 2h sword like Elric, and also Anomander Rake can turn into a super-dragon, because dragons are cool and he's the most powerful one, and also Anomander Rake has a flying fortress, not just a landship.

Apparently, from interviews, Steven Erikson said that he never read Elric.

Quite a number of the non-Bridgeburner characters in Malazan are basically "what a teen or very early 20s nerdy dude would think was super-awesome", whereas the Bridgeburners etc. seem to have been written by a grown-up (presumably the author). I do respect that despite his ludicrous elements Erikson tries to give Rake a decent personality and he ends up surprisingly good as a character (unlike say, Tehol Beddict or Icarium).

Hmmm, I have different opinions, just consider that the campaign was not played in high school but in University. Also, it's not from a complete group of players, but mostly Erikson and Esslemont (although Karsa comes from a different player, later). After that, it's sure that the Erikson stories are, for me, far better than the Esslemont ones.

Somehow it still works out that the series has some pretty incredible lore. I think the story eventually falls to pieces, but it's still a hell of thing.

I agree that the end is not as incredible as the start, it's hard to finish right, especially with something of that scope.

 

[Lord Shark]

For another example of Law as evil from Moorcock's work, see the Singularity and the Original Insect from the"Second Ether" trilogy (Blood, Fabulous Harbours, and The War Amongst the Angels).

 

[Lyxen]

For another example of Law as evil from Moorcock's work, see the Singularity and the Original Insect from the"Second Ether" trilogy (Blood, Fabulous Harbours, and The War Amongst the Angels).

Never read those, actually, I don't think I've read much "recent" Moorcock.

 

[Ruin Explorer]

Apparently, from interviews, Steven Erikson said that he never read Elric.

Read and "familiar with" are two different things though. I never read a Fantastic Four comic for like twenty years but I was extremely familiar with the characters through descriptions (and when I did read one all my impressions/understandings were correct). Also I dunno if he came up with Rake or Esslemont or one of the other players (at least in his earlier accounts he implied there was an entire group involved, not just the two of them - maybe that story changed later though).

As for "university", well, Icarium, Anomander Rake and Tehol Beddict are all very teenage-early-twenties power-fantasy-type characters, I could see someone coming up with the first two in university, and Tehol Beddict absolutely screams "I JUST DID ECONOMICS 101 AND NOW I AM A GOD!" lol <3

 

[Hexmage-EN]

I wish Moorcock's stuff was more well known. By D&D fans, at the very least, considering how much of D&D was inspired by Moorcock (like the sword Blackrazor, or the Hexblade subclass, or the concepts of Law and Chaos, etc).

 

[Ruin Explorer]

I wish Moorcock's stuff was more well known. By D&D fans, at the very least, considering how much of D&D was inspired by Moorcock (like the sword Blackrazor, or the Hexblade subclass, or the concepts of Law and Chaos, etc).

Yeah there's been a weird and steep decline in familiarity with Moorcock among fantasy fans over the last two decades. In the 1990s, ironically enough, it was White Wolf who kept knowledge of Moorcock alive by publishing attractive collections of his stories - Publication Series: The Eternal Champion (White Wolf)

But it seems like despite this, in the 2000s, awareness of Moorcock just absolutely plummeted (despite 3E references to him), and nowadays, if you ask the average under-35 fantasy fan about Moorcock, they're likely to be at most aware of the name and maybe connect it to Elric. I've sadly read very confident proclaimations on several occasions from self-declared "experts" or "knowledgeable fans" that the only big influence on D&D is Tolkien (Appendix N can DIAF I guess? some people lol!), and if you point out the heavy Moorcock elements to them, they're perplexed, and typically claim that because they haven't heard of Moorcock, he can't possibly matter. Can't argue with stellar logic like that I guess lol!

To be fair there are people who are more open-minded, but I think even Wolfe is more read than Moorcock these days (somehow the New Sun series having slooooooowly risen back into people's awareness I think by sheer bulk of recommendations).

 

[bpauls]

Yeah there's been a weird and steep decline in familiarity with Moorcock among fantasy fans over the last two decades. In the 1990s, ironically enough, it was White Wolf who kept knowledge of Moorcock alive by publishing attractive collections of his stories - Publication Series: The Eternal Champion (White Wolf)

But it seems like despite this, in the 2000s, awareness of Moorcock just absolutely plummeted (despite 3E references to him), and nowadays, if you ask the average under-35 fantasy fan about Moorcock, they're likely to be at most aware of the name and maybe connect it to Elric. I've sadly read very confident proclaimations on several occasions from self-declared "experts" or "knowledgeable fans" that the only big influence on D&D is Tolkien (Appendix N can DIAF I guess? some people lol!), and if you point out the heavy Moorcock elements to them, they're perplexed, and typically claim that because they haven't heard of Moorcock, he can't possibly matter. Can't argue with stellar logic like that I guess lol!

To be fair there are people who are more open-minded, but I think even Wolfe is more read than Moorcock these days (somehow the New Sun series having slooooooowly risen back into people's awareness I think by sheer bulk of recommendations).

Regrettably, the biggest influence on D&D these days is D&D--either by calling back to previous editions, D&D fiction, or video games that were themselves inspired by D&D. Insularity doesn't grow and deepen the game, but it does crank out more of the same, which is good for sales (at least in the short term.)

 

[Ruin Explorer]

Regrettably, the biggest influence on D&D these days is D&D--either by calling back to previous editions, D&D fiction, or video games that were themselves inspired by D&D. Insularity doesn't grow and deepen the game, but it does crank out more of the same, which is good for sales (at least in the short term.)

Yeah that is true and I think fans, very much including older fans, are a big part of the problem here but so is WotC. Fans often object to D&D doing anything "off-beat" (I'm sure I've been guilty of it even), or taking influence from sources which aren't TRADITION and a very sort of narrow range of high fantasy, and/or crudely attempting to incorporate other fantasy without making any actual accomodations for it. WotC themselves, I think partly because they didn't originate D&D, have a similarly conservative attitude, with a grand total of what, one whole actual new D&D setting over the last 22-odd years? The rest all being very safe cross-marketing (mostly from MtG) or updates of older settings. They've suggested two entirely new non-MtG settings are on the way, but I'll believe it when I see it.

I think 4E didn't help because it sort of tried to change D&D too much too fast, but D&D does need to reach out to the greater world of fantasy a bit more I think.

That said, in the short term at least, I think the "D&D is huge" thing is going to work well for WotC, for a few years.