D&D 5E How to "fix" (or at least help) the fighter/wizard dynamic. (+)

[DND_Reborn]

They'd be training their superpower and not their fighting ability.

Don't the two go sort of hand-in-hand? Can you give an example?

For instance, in the idea of a Paragon class, I was returning to the jumping ability and a feature I named Mighty Leaps. How might I do it with such a class in mind, and this was my idea (please let me know if this is at all the direction you are thinking!):

Mighty Leaps
Your extraordinary leaps are a sight to behold! You gain a distance you can add to your leaps equal to 20 times your level in this class. When you use your movement to jump, you can add any amount up to this bonus distance. Your bonus distance is reduced by the amount you choose to add. Your bonus distance resets when you finish a short or long rest.

I know the wording is clunky, but for example, if you were 10th level you would have a bonus 200 feet of jumping distance. You could use it all in one jump, requiring you to rest before you could use it again, or break it up as needed, say + 40 feet, then +100 feet, then +60 feet, at which point it would be spent.

You could change the base bonus value from 20 to whatever suited you. I had 50 at first, but thought that might be too much?

 

[DND_Reborn]

you need to do both nerf casters, and buff martials/give them more options, to balance it out, otherwise what are we really doing here

While I can't speak for everyone, that has always been my goal, in one way or another. I feel martials are too weak in many ways, and with so much magic, spells, and spell slots caster can be too strong. So, pretty much everything you'll see me doing revolves around balancing the two instead of just nerfing one too much or bumping up the other too much.

That is, personally, my goal.

 

[Yaarel]

It has been a while since I looked closely at character optimization. And new books have introduced new options.

Currently, what is the current single-target damage-per-round for the top subclasses? Assume no magic items.

As a design principle, the Fighter should have the best dpr, and probably be top for damage-per-adventuring-level.

My impression is, the Fighter class generally is underperforming − is this impression accurate?

 

[DND_Reborn]

My impression is, the Fighter class generally is underperforming − is this impression accurate?

Personally, I would agree to that over all, yes.

But I don't even think that is really the issue. It is close enough that many people feel it's okay. Could it be better, certainly!

What is more the issue is the ability to drastically change the outcome of an encounter, really either in combat, exploration, or social, in which other classes can match or beat the fighter.

 

[Fanaelialae]

In 5e:

"Quadratic Fighter" versus "Linear Wizard"

An Extra Attack is a Fighter damage multiplier, exponentially.

While the 5e Wizard spells are now additive progressions

Not only do Wizard spells now require the cost of higher slots to do more damage, but the Wizard has drastically fewer high slots.

I think you may be confused regarding linear vs quadratic progression.

Fighter damage jumps, but it does so in a predictable and linear manner. 1x, then 2x, then 3x, then 4x. While x may see the occasional small boost beyond this (from Str improvements), it's still effectively linear. If you graph a fighter's damage from 1 to 20, it's basically a straight line.

Whereas wizards continue to get both more spells and better spells. Those spells can also be combined in ways that produce a result significantly greater than what either spell individually can accomplish. Hence, effectively quadratic (albeit, noticably diminished from the days of 3.x). Their capacity to do things improves exponentially.

 

[Oofta]

I didn't call anyone lazy.

I said you cant see it because your can imagine it. This is likely because we have consumed different media, forms of media, and genre of media have have different imaginations.

My point is that saying "I can't imagine it so it can't exist" is not a good argument against something that others says exists in other places and could be pointed too.

Sorry, not lazy. Just unimaginative.

 

[Oofta]

Don't the two go sort of hand-in-hand? Can you give an example?

For instance, in the idea of a Paragon class, I was returning to the jumping ability and a feature I named Mighty Leaps. How might I do it with such a class in mind, and this was my idea (please let me know if this is at all the direction you are thinking!):

Mighty Leaps
Your extraordinary leaps are a sight to behold! You gain a distance you can add to your leaps equal to 20 times your level in this class. When you use your movement to jump, you can add any amount up to this bonus distance. Your bonus distance is reduced by the amount you choose to add. Your bonus distance resets when you finish a short or long rest.

I know the wording is clunky, but for example, if you were 10th level you would have a bonus 200 feet of jumping distance. You could use it all in one jump, requiring you to rest before you could use it again, or break it up as needed, say + 40 feet, then +100 feet, then +60 feet, at which point it would be spent.

You could change the base bonus value from 20 to whatever suited you. I had 50 at first, but thought that might be too much?

First, I don't want that in a D&D game. At all. A 20th level character jumping a 400 feet? That's an entirely different genre.

Second, if that kind of thing is really an issue there are plenty of options. Boots of flying are uncommon items for example. That, and how often does it really matter?

 

[Yaarel]

What is more the issue is the ability to drastically change the outcome of an encounter, really either in combat, exploration, or social, in which other classes can match or beat the fighter.

I agree that the Fighter must have more features to contribute to social and exploration. For me, that is obvious.



The question is only about balance between classes in combat. How do combat shenanigans versus combat damage dealing result?

Focus-firing or one-shotting a foe, changes the outcome of a combat encounter. Dead foes do nothing.

Dealing damage matters.

In 5e, damage matters more than in other editions. There are arguably no save-or-die spells to take out a high-hitpoint foe. As long as a foe has hitpoints, the danger persists.



A Wizard has access to damage spells, but if a Wizard is using slots to deal damage, then one is no longer doing spells that do shenanigans. It is a tradeoff.

 

[Oofta]

It has been a while since I looked closely at character optimization. And new books have introduced new options.

Currently, what is the current single-target damage-per-round for the top subclasses? Assume no magic items.

As a design principle, the Fighter should have the best dpr, and probably be top for damage-per-adventuring-level.

My impression is, the Fighter class generally is underperforming − is this impression accurate?

It depends on a lot of factors, primarily whether or not you have a 5 minute work day. If you have 1 or 2 fights between long rests, fighters fall behind. The fighter can't nova as much as a wizard (don't discount action surge) but it's slow and steady versus glass cannons that have limited ammo.

 

[Yaarel]

I think you may be confused regarding linear vs quadratic progression.

Fighter damage jumps, but it does so in a predictable and linear manner. 1x, then 2x, then 3x, then 4x. While x may see the occasional small boost beyond this (from Str improvements), it's still effectively linear. If you graph a fighter's damage from 1 to 20, it's basically a straight line.

Whereas wizards continue to get both more spells and better spells. Those spells can also be combined in ways that produce a result significantly greater than what either spell individually can accomplish. Hence, effectively quadratic (albeit, noticably diminished from the days of 3.x). Their capacity to do things improves exponentially.

Besides Fireball whose damage is inflated for plot protection, each slot level has a limited amount damage that it is capable of dealing, and most damage spells are defective and deal less damage than its slot should (such as Flame Strike).

So the 5e Wizard is linear. Unlike 3e and earlier when each slot level continued to increase damage while leveling, whence geometrically increasing damage.

With regard to the Fighter, any additional damage to an attack, gets multiplied − geometrically − by the Extra Attacks.