D&D 5E What Level is the Wizard vs. the Fighter?

[Neonchameleon]

Is this for or against my assertion? An action surging fighter can easily hit three times and kill an ogre in 1 round. That's the point I was making.

I'd hardly call one monster less than half your level with pretty much optimal equipment (especially with the Great Weapon Master power attack which provides almost half the damage) as "a lot of enemies".

 

[Micah Sweet]

I'd hardly call one monster less than half your level with pretty much optimal equipment (especially with the Great Weapon Master power attack which provides almost half the damage) as "a lot of enemies".

I'm talking about potential single round single target damage. Fireball has nothing to do with it.. By your own math, with a fighter of at least 5th level, that's an average of nearly 120 damage to one target, if they hit every time (which is entirely possible given how low many AC values are in 5e). A lot of enemies would drop from that. And yes, my players do lean into Great Weapon Mastery and anything else they can find to up that number.

 

[FrogReaver]

I'm talking about potential single round single target damage. Fireball has nothing to do with it.. By your own math, with a fighter of at least 5th level, that's an average of nearly 120 damage to one target, if they hit every time (which is entirely possible given how low many AC values are in 5e). A lot of enemies would drop from that. And yes, my players do lean into Great Weapon Mastery and anything else they can find to up that number.

A Wizard at level 5 can maintain 8 skeletons via Animate Dead per dead, while having precast summon fey, while having a familiar out and using it to help him when he casts level 2 chromatic orb + elven accuracy. He has a higher DPR against the Ogre that round than the level 5 action surging GWM + GWF using Fighter. Superiority dice can still allow the fighter to top the wizard in single round DPR but adding in wizard subclass features puts them neck and neck IMO.

Fighters are more consistent at damage - but if a wizard wants to setup for damage he can definitely do so and isn't bad at it. (Only gets better at it as he levels and as more subclass features are added on).

 

[DND_Reborn]

So, did a little analysis of my 709 creature database vs. a 6th-level (minimum for variant human STR 20 with standard array/point-buy and GWM feat) with a greatsword +2, and here are the results of using Action Surge for 4 attacks. FYI, this was a Battle Master build with Precision attack and any other maneuver which would allow you to add the superiority die for damage.

The table below shows the % of opponents of a given AC or CR that the fighter would kill (on average damage) in the Action Surge round.

For example, of the 56 CR 3 monsters in my file, the Fighter would kill 86% of them (only 8 have sufficient HP to survive).
For example, of the 102 AC 15 monsters in my file, the Fighter would kill 55% of them in the Action Surge round.

As you can see, once you get to a certain AC or CR, and the creature is either too hard to hit enough and/or has too many hit points to kill in one round with Action Surge.

Now, this is the type of optimized build I don't typically see in my own games, but for others it might be interesting.

Finally, depending on AC, when GWM is used typically damage over the 4 attacks ranges from about 50 - 90 in the round. Oh, and I did include critical hits on the 20.

 

[FrogReaver]

So, did a little analysis of my 709 creature database vs. a 6th-level (minimum for variant human STR 20 with standard array/point-buy and GWM feat) with a greatsword +2, and here are the results of using Action Surge for 4 attacks. FYI, this was a Battle Master build with Precision attack and any other maneuver which would allow you to add the superiority die for damage.

The table below shows the % of opponents of a given AC or CR that the fighter would kill in the Action Surge round.

For example, of the 56 CR 3 monsters in my file, the Fighter would kill 86% of them (only 8 have sufficient HP to survive).
For example, of the 102 AC 15 monsters in my file, the Fighter would kill 55% of them in the Action Surge round.

As you can see, once you get to a certain AC or CR, and the creature is either too hard to hit enough and/or has too many hit points to kill in one round with Action Surge.

Now, this is the type of optimized build I don't typically see in my own games, but for others it might be interesting.

Finally, depending on AC, when GWM is used typically damage over the 4 attacks ranges from about 50 - 90 in the round. Oh, and I did include critical hits on the 20.

View attachment 151705

are you just comparing average damage to their hp?

 

[DND_Reborn]

are you just comparing average damage to their hp?

Given their armor class, yes.

That is usually how fighters kill things.

 

[FrogReaver]

Given their armor class, yes.

I think it's worth noting that doing a monsters hp as your average DPR means you will only kill them about 50% of the time in that 1 round. The damage and attack distributions matter alot there.

It's only when you get a sufficient amount of DPR above their average HP that you really see them regularly dying in one round.

So it might be better to look at when the fighter does 20% or 30% more DPR than the mosnters average hp.

 

[DND_Reborn]

I think it's worth noting that doing a monsters hp as your average DPR means you will only kill them about 50% of the time in that 1 round. The damage and attack distributions matter alot there.

It's only when you get a sufficient amount of DPR above their average HP that you really see them regularly dying in one round.

So it might be better to look at when the fighter does 20% or 30% more DPR than the mosnters average hp.

Updated to note on average damage.

 

[Micah Sweet]

A Wizard at level 5 can maintain 8 skeletons via Animate Dead per dead, while having precast summon fey, while having a familiar out and using it to help him when he casts level 2 chromatic orb + elven accuracy. He has a higher DPR against the Ogre that round than the level 5 action surging GWM + GWF using Fighter. Superiority dice can still allow the fighter to top the wizard in single round DPR but adding in wizard subclass features puts them neck and neck IMO.

Fighters are more consistent at damage - but if a wizard wants to setup for damage he can definitely do so and isn't bad at it. (Only gets better at it as he levels and as more subclass features are added on).

I'm not actually claiming that fighters are equal to wizards by any particular metric, just that action surge is extremely boring and I'm glad Level Up got rid of it. Kudos on the math though.

 

[HammerMan]

Listen. I get what you're saying, but this is a matter of perspective. A very successful athlete can make it to the Olympics, but if he doesn't win a medal, he's a failed Olympian. 4e failed to get what it needed to survive, so it's a failed edition in that regard, even if it was a good game(and a lot of people liked it).

the word you are useing is wrong. He didn't fail he lost. coming in last place in the Olympics is not a failure it is in fact a success so wild 99% of people will NEVER get to do it. This ricky boby mentality of "If your not first your last" means EVERY edition of D&D is a failure becuse sooner or later every edition is going to (useing your words)failed to get what it needed to survive, so it's a failed edition in that regard