D&D 5E cloak of displacement and blindsight

[Lyxen]

For the first time I realised that Cloak of Displacement doesn't say if your REAL image becomes invisible...

It does not need to: "While you wear this cloak, it projects an illusion that makes you appear to be standing in a place near your actual location, causing any creature to have disadvantage on attack rolls against you."

As the name implies, it displaces your image, so it's not at the real location anymore, it's at the new one. It's not creating a new image like mirror image, it's using your image, just appearing to be standing a bit off.

I think the RAI of "displacement" is definitely that you are in one place but everyone sees you a bit far away, but someone might claim you see double.

I don't think someone could reasonably make that claim based on the sentence above.

Anyway for the question at hand, I would check if the opponent with blindsight also has normal sight. I think normally blindsight is given to creatures without eyes, in which case I think they will just know your true location and would not see the illusion at all. If they do also have normal vision (maybe someone who is getting blindsight from a spell or item) then it might be interesting to consider letting them see BOTH and be puzzled for a bit not knowing which one is right, but then there are spells like Blur and Mirror Image which reveal that probably the RAI around blindsight is to beat this sort of effects.

I think it really depends on the type of blindsight. 5e has a general blanket description for blindsight, but you can imagine different types, from echolocation to heat to just mystic feeling. Moreover, the illusion type is not precise either, nothing says that it displaces only the visual image. It makes you appear a bit off, it might be complete with sound, heat, etc. in which case it might fool some types of blindsense.

At this stage, it's really a DM's call, 5e is not precise enough.

 

[Li Shenron]

It does not need to: "While you wear this cloak, it projects an illusion that makes you appear to be standing in a place near your actual location, causing any creature to have disadvantage on attack rolls against you."

As the name implies, it displaces your image, so it's not at the real location anymore, it's at the new one. It's not creating a new image like mirror image, it's using your image, just appearing to be standing a bit off.



I don't think someone could reasonably make that claim based on the sentence above.



I think it really depends on the type of blindsight. 5e has a general blanket description for blindsight, but you can imagine different types, from echolocation to heat to just mystic feeling. Moreover, the illusion type is not precise either, nothing says that it displaces only the visual image. It makes you appear a bit off, it might be complete with sound, heat, etc. in which case it might fool some types of blindsense.

At this stage, it's really a DM's call, 5e is not precise enough.

It's funny that you see an unquestionable precision on the words "project" and "appear" when it comes to imply that the original image disappears despite not saying that explicitly, but you find them imprecise enough to claim non-visual elements are displaced because not saying the opposite explicitly.

 

[Lyxen]

It's funny that you see an unquestionable precision on the words "project" and "appear" when it comes to imply that the original image disappears despite not saying that explicitly

Once more, the cloak makes you appear somewhere else. Does teleport need to tell you that your old self disappears when the new you appears at a new location ? It's a movement, not a delete and replace, it would say so otherwise.

but you find them imprecise enough to claim non-visual elements are displaced because not saying the opposite explicitly.

Appear somewhere else does not mean duplicate.

 

[Li Shenron]

Appear somewhere else does not mean duplicate.

Why not? My home projector projects the image from my laptop to the wall, it appears on the wall without disappearing from the laptop screen.

But all this discussion is bogus. I wouldn't even play it like that, as I said originally it was just a thought, when something says "displaced" I make it appear in another place. I don't make it sound or smell from another place however, just like I don't make you feel touching it where it really isn't.

As I said in the other thread, putting the RAW over everything else, ruleslawyering, discussing language minutiae makes the game go awry, it's a waste of time and can even kill friendships. Ergo, end of discussion for me. I said what is my suggestion already, up to the OP to take it or leave it.

 

[Lyxen]

Why not? My home projector projects the image from my laptop to the wall, it appears on the wall without disappearing from the laptop screen.

Amusing, because when you use that, the windows option is called "duplicate".

Otherwise, it's extend...

But all this discussion is bogus. I wouldn't even play it like that, as I said originally it was just a thought, when something says "displaced" I make it appear in another place. I don't make it sound or smell from another place however, just like I don't make you feel touching it where it really isn't.

I'm just saying that it's an option to consider since it's an unspecified illusion, and that some include sound, heat, etc.

For example, the spell that looks the most like the cloak is project image (although in this case it is specified as a copy), and: "The illusion looks and sounds like you but is intangible."

As I said in the other thread, putting the RAW over everything else, ruleslawyering, discussing language minutiae makes the game go awry, it's a waste of time and can even kill friendships. Ergo, end of discussion for me.

And sometimes, it's just discussion and banter, you know, because there are no stakes. I'm just offereing ideas and presenting options, not forcing you to choose one, especially in 5e where it's rulings over rules.

 

[ECMO3]

No, because specific beats general, the more general rule of any creature would be trumped by the specific power of Zariel to see through illusions such as the one projected by the cloak.

No you have it backwards. You actually have specific vs general mixed up in this, the function of the cloak is specific while Zaeiels ability (truesight) is general.

Zariael's ability gives her truesight which is the ability to see through illusions, but the way this is worded, the illusion is not necessary for the disadvantage.

Strict RAW, Zariel can see exactly where the wearer is (because of her power) and she still has disadvantage.

 

[Lyxen]

No you have it backwards. You actually have specific vs general mixed up in this, the function of the cloak is specific while Zaeiels ability (truesight) is general.

Zariael's ability gives her truesight which is the ability to see through illusions, but the way this is worded, the illusion is not necessary for the disadvantage.

Strict RAW, Zariel can see exactly where the wearer is (because of her power) and she still has disadvantage.

This is one of the most bizarre thing I've ever read. So her vision negates the illusion that gives disadvantage, but she still has disadvantage ? Why ?

And here I was, thinking, stupidly probably, that the reason someone had disadvantage is because they were targeting the illusion rather than the creature... Why would Zariel do that if she sees where the creature is ?

 

[Sorcerers Apprentice]

Strict RAW, Zariel can see exactly where the wearer is (because of her power) and she still has disadvantage.

Just a reminder that the 5e rules are written in "natural language" and not technical script, and are meant to be interpreted by the DM. If a technical reading of the rules gives you a result that's self-contradictory or otherwise makes no sense, that's a clear sign that that particular reading is wrong.

Technically Correct is not the best kind of Correct in 5e, but perhaps the best kind of Incorrect.

 

[DEFCON 1]

For me it'd be simple... the player with the cloak has been getting the bonus disadvantage on attacks against them for so long that I'd give it to the blindsight creature just to vary up the gameplay. Players who have really cool stuff don't need to get their really cool stuff ALL the time... sometimes they need to have a challenge placed in front of them just to keep them on their toes and keep things interesting.

 

[steeldragons]

Can a creature with Blindsight ignore the disadvantage effect of the illusion?

Yes.