D&D 5E Truly Understanding the Martials & Casters discussion (+)

[Aldarc]

So then, what's wrong with magic, specifically, performing that role?

It's not like such a character doesn't exist, it's just that they use magic as their proxy. I can make a Ranger exactly as that warrior-type, but that's apparently not enough.

What is wrong with magic? Is it shameful that your warrior uses the essence of the weave to bolster his allies or navigate a wilderness? What satisfaction do you get from a warrior that does the same thing a Ranger does, but nonmagical?

Why should magic be the only or primary mechanical means in the game for player characters to reliably change the game fiction? Why can't there be more mechanics that also let characters of non-magical classes change the state of the game fiction as part of play? What is wrong with a non-magical character having the capability to mechanically change the game fiction? Why should this be exclusive to magic?

That’s fair.

But if people are looking for something that looks, sounds, smells and acts like magic. Maybe the solution is to have magic.

Spells are just useful packages for granular abilities that can be selected ad hoc and applied as the user wishes.

We acknowledge that when a sorcerer is using magic it will be different to the way a wizard uses it, or a bard or a warlock. Why can’t the fighter be happy with that?

When the fighter smashes his maul into the ground and causes everyone around him to save vs Str or take damage and be knocked back, why does that have to be fundamentally different to the Thunderwave spell?

Magic is just another way of saying beyond the norm.

I think you are missing my point here. Let me repeat myself:

Maybe that is what you are seeing, and I respect that you have that reading of the situation; however, I see things differently from you. I see people who want a warrior with the reliable mechanical capability to exert an impact on the direction of the game in ways other than making things dead.

As such, I don't think that people are pointing to the wizard or spells because they want the warrior to perform these exact things, but, rather, because magic is a clear area of the game where players have mechanical buttons to push or levers to pull that can reliably exert a certain degree of narrative agency over the game fiction. Magic does not require GM approval for it to succeed. The player casts X, Y happens as a reliable result (assuming successful check/roll), and Z becomes the new state of the game fiction. Lather, rinse, repeat.

I suspect that the popularity of the Battlemaster Fighter is no small part a result of how it has a suite of mechanical powers that allows the player a greater latitude of impact over the game in a way analogous to spells. Again, it does not necessarily involve the sort of things that high level magic is capable of performing, but it does often give the players a mechanical means to influence the state of the game fiction.

Moreover, magic is not limited to combat. Magic can also have a profound effect in the other game pillars. So casters often have a means to mechnically exert that sort of agency in all modes and pillars of the game.

I don't think that these people want something that "looks, sounds, and acts like magic," but, rather, something mechanical that lets their warrior characters reliably exert narrative agency over the game fiction.

And please note that I also point to the non-magical Battlemaster as an extraordinarily popular fighter subclass that has mechanical abilities that they can reliably perform: i.e., maneuvers.

 

[HammerMan]

What is wrong with magic? Is it shameful that your warrior uses the essence of the weave to bolster his allies or navigate a wilderness? What satisfaction do you get from a warrior that does the same thing a Ranger does, but nonmagical?

nothing is wrong or shamful if you choose to be a caster... however if you WANT to not be but still have options you can't

this is why every edition I have played ended with a group full of casters... except 4e. Infact in 4e we had to constantly remember to have a caster or two. We were so martial starved our first campaign was 2 fighters a ranger a rouge and a warlord... and it was glorius. out of a dozen or so campagins I only remember 1 that DIDN'T have either equal martial/caster or MORE martial characters...

5e is already in 3e and 2e territory... multi/duel/sub class into spell casting

I actually think such rules could be designed with great precision and do exactly as intended. If WoTC invested in doing it, they could achieve it relatively easily. My confusion is how that should be a priority for them enough to do it. How often are martial players truly wishing to jump extraordinarily far? And is the lack of these rules hindering the game objectively?

If it's a matter of personal preference, then it isn't a problem or issue that needs to be resolved. And throwing shade at WoTC for not providing utility martials could be seen as inappropriate. I'm asking, what turns this from a design that doesn't cater to everyone into a problem?

at this point its' antidote vs antidoet... it's "I want X" vs "I don't want X"

why come to a thread about wanting X just to say you don't want X...

 

[nevin]

Obviously the solution is to put mages in armor give them thsame number of attacks as martials and same baby and give all martials full spellcasting ability.....

 

[Remathilis]

It's not a question of level, or replication.

It's a question of getting things to do:

Big Heroic Leaps
Mighty feats of strength
Crashing blows that throw enemies around
clobbering hordes of cannon fodder critters around you in one great sweep.
Taunts, staredowns, battlecries that unnever, goad or terrify enemies.
smashing walls
lifting and throwing huge things
grabbing one guy and hitting his friend with him
being a danger to anyone in a room with both you and matter like Jackie Chan.
running down wild animals like Tarzan.
executing basic battlefield tactics with allies including rallies
having some kind of danger sense
not being threatened by sad goblins when they are the pinnacle of mortal existence (don't say they're not. This was a specific design choice)

But isn't part of the problem there isn't a thing on that list that a 7th level wizard can't equally accomplish with a spell? Running and jumping are 1st level spells. Demoralizing a foe is 1st to 3rd. Smashing walls and feats of strength are maybe 2nd-4th level, depending on exact nature.

Now I'm not saying a fighter SHOULDN'T have those kinds of abilities; they should. But we've maybe moved the needle from a fighter having the shenanigans of a first level caster to that of a 6th level caster. Major improvement, but not quite the equality some people are looking for.

 

[HammerMan]

Saying "fighters must be dumb fun, wizards must be complex" cuts off numerous characters.

this alone is the answer... why do it... to make more character make/playable

 

[Neonchameleon]

That’s fair.

But if people are looking for something that looks, sounds, smells and acts like magic. Maybe the solution is to have magic.

Spells are just useful packages for granular abilities that can be selected ad hoc and applied as the user wishes.

We acknowledge that when a sorcerer is using magic it will be different to the way a wizard uses it, or a bard or a warlock. Why can’t the fighter be happy with that?

When the sorcerer was created it really was a wizard with the serial numbers filed off so it could cast spontaneous spells. It's only gradually escaping that legacy. Warlocks are slightly different - especially as they have invocations.

Why can't the wizard be happy making attack rolls using fighter weapons and claiming Mage Armour and scorching bolts.

When the fighter smashes his maul into the ground and causes everyone around him to save vs Str or take damage and be knocked back, why does that have to be fundamentally different to the Thunderwave spell?

Magic is just another way of saying beyond the norm.

Not all magic is spells. Why do you think it is?

But why can Hercules move a river? He's the son of a God. Superman punch reality? He's an alien who gains power from the sun. They are "magical" in the sense that they aren't mortals. They have special birthrights that set them apart. They aren't normal people who trained hard enough to punch reality.

But why could Merlin cast spells? He was the son of a cambion. Why could Circe? She was a literal goddess. Why could Gandalf? He was one of the Maiar. Almost every mythological wizard has something supernatural about their ancestry.

If you want to say "fighters shouldn't be able to do supernatural things unless their parents are supernatural" then we should restrict wizards to the abilities of literal real world stage conjurers. Either that or say that fighters are just as entitled to supernatural birthrights as wizards are. Or we can just assume that birthrights are silly.

 

[Neonchameleon]

Now I'm not saying a fighter SHOULDN'T have those kinds of abilities; they should. But we've maybe moved the needle from a fighter having the shenanigans of a first level caster to that of a 6th level caster. Major improvement, but not quite the equality some people are looking for.

The idea that fighters get more powerful abilities as they level up is something I think most people would agree with.

 

[HammerMan]

Now I'm not saying a fighter SHOULDN'T have those kinds of abilities; they should. But we've maybe moved the needle from a fighter having the shenanigans of a first level caster to that of a 6th level caster. Major improvement, but not quite the equality some people are looking for.

this is also why I bring up moving rivers, punching through time and retcon punch... all well within 8th to 9th level spell range... earthquake stomp is easy 8th level... but lets look at 6th

Spoiler: list

Name ◇	Level ◇	School ◇	Ritual ◇	Casting Time ◇	Components ◇	Concentration ◇	Source ◇
Arcane Gate	6th	Conjuration		1 action	VS	yes	phb 214
Blade Barrier	6th	Evocation		1 action	VS	yes	phb 218
Bones of the Earth	6th	Transmutation		1 action	VS		ee 15, xge 150
Chain Lightning	6th	Evocation		1 action	VSM		phb 221
Circle of Death	6th	Necromancy		1 action	VSMgp		phb 221
Conjure Fey	6th	Conjuration		1 minute	VS	yes	phb 226
Contingency	6th	Evocation		10 minutes	VSMgp		phb 227
Create Homunculus	6th	Transmutation		1 hour	VSMgp		xge 152
Create Undead	6th	Necromancy		1 minute	VSMgp		phb 229
Disintegrate	6th	Transmutation		1 action	VSM		phb 233
Drawmij's Instant Summons	6th	Conjuration	yes	1 minute	VSMgp		phb 235
Druid Grove	6th	Abjuration		10 minutes	VSM		xge 154
Eyebite	6th	Necromancy		1 action	VS	yes	phb 238
Find the Path	6th	Divination		1 minute	VSMgp	yes	phb 240
Flesh to Stone	6th	Transmutation		1 action	VSM	yes	phb 243
Forbiddance	6th	Abjuration	yes	10 minutes	VSMgp		phb 243
Globe of Invulnerability	6th	Abjuration		1 action	VSM	yes	phb 245
Guards and Wards	6th	Abjuration		10 minutes	VSMgp		phb 248
Harm	6th	Necromancy		1 action	VS		phb 249
Heal	6th	Evocation		1 action	VS		phb 250
Heroes' Feast	6th	Conjuration		10 minutes	VSMgp		phb 250
Investiture of Flame	6th	Transmutation		1 action	VS	yes	ee 19, xge 159
Investiture of Ice	6th	Transmutation		1 action	VS	yes	ee 19, xge 159
Investiture of Stone	6th	Transmutation		1 action	VS	yes	ee 19, xge 159
Investiture of Wind	6th	Transmutation		1 action	VS	yes	ee 20, xge 160
Magic Jar	6th	Necromancy		1 minute	VSMgp		phb 257
Mass Suggestion	6th	Enchantment		1 action	VM		phb 258
Mental Prison	6th	Illusion		1 action	S	yes	xge 161
Move Earth	6th	Transmutation		1 action	VSM	yes	phb 263
Otiluke's Freezing Sphere	6th	Evocation		1 action	VSM		phb 263
Otto's Irresistible Dance	6th	Enchantment		1 action	V	yes	phb 264
Planar Ally	6th	Conjuration		10 minutes	VS		phb 265
Primordial Ward	6th	Abjuration		1 action	VS	yes	ee 21, xge 163
Programmed Illusion	6th	Illusion		1 action	VSMgp		phb 269
Scatter	6th	Abjuration		1 action	V		xge 164
Soul Cage	6th	Necromancy		1 reaction	VSMgp		xge 165
Summon Fiend	6th	Conjuration		1 action	VSM	yes	tce 112
Sunbeam	6th	Evocation		1 action	VSM	yes	phb 279
Tasha's Otherworldly Guise	6th	Transmutation		1 bonus action	VSM	yes	tce 116
Tenser's Transformation	6th	Transmutation		1 action	VSM	yes	xge 168
Transport via Plants	6th	Conjuration		1 action	VS		phb 283
True Seeing	6th	Divination		1 action	VSMgp		phb 284
Wall of Ice	6th	Evocation		1 action	VSM	yes	phb 285
Wall of Thorns	6th	Conjuration		1 action	VSM	yes	phb 287
Wind Walk	6th	Transmutation		1 minute	VSM		phb 288
Word of Recall	6th	Conjuration		1 action	V		phb 289

Spoiler

programed illusion. soul cage true seeing contigunsy, create undead, arcane gate... what 20th level fighter can 1/day (heck 1/year) match the power of those?

 

[bert1001 fka bert1000]

at this point its' antidote vs antidoet... it's "I want X" vs "I don't want X"

why come to a thread about wanting X just to say you don't want X...

Yep. Listen, I don't begrudge someone their PH Fighter with magic items. That is a fine archtype and if some people are fine with it, great.

I really dislike those same people arguing against including other options, especially with the following logic (I saw this a lot with the Warlord threads):

Person 1: Fighters are fine as they are. I've never had a problem with having high level Fighters and Wizards in my party.

Person 2: Cool, I want to have a real on and off the field martial leader. Here's a draft of the Warlord -- it gets all these powerful cool abilities but I think it's fine because they aren't really better than the Wizard's spells at those levels.

Person 1: Whoa, that's way overpowered. The Fighter doesn't get anything near that.

Person 2: I'm not comparing it to the Fighter, I'm comparing it to the Wizard which you said was fine???

Person 1: The Fighter is fine, but no one will play a Fighter if you add this Warlord.

Person 2: ??????

 

[jayoungr]

the drunk master can not prep X or Y they ALWAYS have Z. So you don't feel like you wasted preping Z it was your only option.

I agree with this statement.

I will disagree with this becuse that is also true with plenty of casters "My waarlock took X spell and is locked in instead or Y"

I'm confused--what are you disagreeing with?

However I am explaining why as both a DM and a player I HAVE HAD LESS FUN

I know that people who complain are speaking from their own experience. I am not saying their experiences are invalid. I'm only saying that they're not universal. But I know it's generally not helpful, when someone is unhappy, to say, "Well, I'm fine"--which is why I usually keep silent on this subject.

Honestly, it probably comes down to the player and the group as to whether the experience of playing a completely non-magical character is satisfying or not. And probably the people who are satisfied don't seek our message boards to talk about the experience, so we mostly hear from the people who are unhappy, which can create the impression that the majority are unhappy because the majority of talk is unhappy talk.