D&D 5E Truly Understanding the Martials & Casters discussion (+)

[Micah Sweet]

I used to be a 'psionics isn't magic' guy in 2e but I got over that early in 3e... but

but is your limit "Something I can show batman doing in a comic/movie/cartoon" or "Something I think a human can do even if world records indicate otherwise"? If it is the former, I can get behind it. if it is the latter I can not (and of course replace batman with any non magical non supernatural/enhanced hero in fiction.)


every hero has an origin...

we give wizards more power then gandalf ever showed (let alone ratagast) and he was a god/angel. we give wizards more power then jack vance did. we give wizards more power then merlin who was an immortal ageing backwards half demon...

if you need a 'cool origin' to get supernatural powers, then no one should be able to play wizards.

every hero has an origin.

my buddy plays the same family line all the time... he is a human fighter who is descendent of a silver dragon (becuse way back before I was playing in 91 he played a game where his character married a silver dragon and had a family and he like playing the grand children, great grand children ect) If he was playing a spell caster he can play a sorcerer (silver dragon blood line) and get cool powers. If he wants to play a martial character there is not a class for "My origin for my warrior is that I was born fantastical"

I'm an elf, and desendent of lolth... I'm an aasimar, I'm a teifling, I'm a dragonborn, I'm a ______.... my great grand dad on my mom's side was a demi god and my great grand ma on my dad's side was directly blood of the legendary king... both powerful blood lines are in me....

I was just a farmer... nothing special, until a rock fell from the sky killing half my family, it glowed green and red and the half that didn't die in impact all got sick... except me, I was always hardy and tough, I took the metal and forged my first chain shirt and sword and went out into the world... I am now destine for greatness.

I am the 7th son of the 7th daughter of the merging of a teifling woman and an aasimar man... I have a strange power...

I fought my way up the mountain and learned my sword techniques from the old man who even though he was human but over 100 years old and still could kick my 18 year old butt...

but it should be up to the table/people what they do and don't need... do you ask for justification for my farmboy wizard to just gain 2 6th level spells known at 11th level?

Those are all great origins. If you're going to have supernatural powers, those origins should be codified in the rules, or at least in the class description. Like wizards. They studied D&D magic and got super good at it.

 

[Oofta]

I find it difficult to understand the logic of "I don't want my fighter to have supernatural abilities"...

"I just want them to go out and fight dinosaur-sized flying fire-breathing monsters, the undead, creatures whose entire bodies are literally made of acid or poison or are on fire..always"...

"And at all levels they should fight these creatures with a sharpened bit of metal and pure gumption".

Like what are you getting out of a 20th level fighter that you aren't getting out of a 15th level fighter..hell an 11th level fighter?

I never said D&D wasn't a bit silly. But if it wouldn't make sense for an action movie hero, I don't want it for my fighter. I fully accept that John McClane would have never survived any of the Die Hard movies. That half the things Dwayne Jonson does in movies are over the top. But there's a difference between that and being able to carve out chunks of a mountain or leap 60 feet at will.

 

[HammerMan]

I never said D&D wasn't a bit silly. But if it wouldn't make sense for an action movie hero, I don't want it for my fighter. I fully accept that John McClane would have never survived any of the Die Hard movies. That half the things Dwayne Jonson does in movies are over the top. But there's a difference between that and being able to carve out chunks of a mountain or leap 60 feet at will.

but Johnson is in the fast furious movies where people jump carss building to building and jump out of speeding cars and walk it off... he just flexes out of a broken arm cast, and somehow that one car could shift to a second and thirds reverse gear...

 

[Fanaelialae]

There's no consensus on the scope of the problem though. You go all the way from people like me who could see some minor tweaks because nothing is perfect to people that want fighters to have demi-god level powers and mythical heroes along with several tangents.

It's like asking people how to improve a bicycle and some want a better seat or better brakes and others want a BMX bike that really can make a jump you'd need a motorcycle and a ramp to accomplish.

There have already been several good suggestions in this thread. Such as having the designers put a bunch of ideas in UA and see what sticks.

What do you want, literally everyone to agree that x is the perfect solution? That obviously will never happen. You could literally make that demand about anything, and it still would never happen. Everyone knows that chocolate ice cream is the best, yet good luck getting everyone to agree to that simple and obvious fact.

There are no perfect solutions. Frequently, however, there are better solutions to be found, for those willing to put in the effort.

You miss 100% of the shots you don't take, and it seems to me like some people really don't want anyone to attempt the shot, because they prefer the status quo.

 

[Remathilis]

every hero has an origin.

Its not origin, it's power source.

4e sorta had this right. Per the 4e PHB

Martial: Martial powers are not magic in the traditional sense, although some martial powers stand well beyond the capabilities of ordinary mortals.

Emphasis mine. "in the traditional sense" is still a form of magic, just not the kind that you think of when referring to arcane or divine magic. It didn't say "martial power is not magic [full stop]", it clearly is supposed to be magical, just not the flashy magic that creates fireballs or cures wounds.

You just need to define "martial magic" a little clearer (much like how bard, warlock, sorcerer and wizard are all arcane, but different types and origins for thier magic) and you're all good.

 

[TheSword]

Let's be honest, there is not one single battlemaster maneuver in the PHB that actually makes the battlemaster better at skills. The only thing they get that adds to their skills is the ability to observe things. I'm glad Tasha's Cauldron of Everything went some way to fixing this.

I thought Commanding Presence and Tactical Assessment did?

But let's be equally honest. What is being asked for for the "heroic" fighter is two basic things:

• The ability to be better out of combat than an equal level commoner - which the fighter isn't and the pre-Tasha's battlemaster barely is.
• The ability to do things they can already do but better. To give some examples of pretty high level suggested fighter abilities:
  • Upgrading jumping (which they can already do) to the ability to leap small or even tall buildings in a single bound. And attack flyers in the process.
  • Upgrading the ability to kick down wooden doors or kick through ticky-tacky walls (which they can already do) to kick bank vault doors off their hinges or kick their way through castle walls.

Now these aren't things normal people can do but they are in line with the high level fighter archetype and letting them do things they already do, better. None of them are flying, turning invisible, or teleporting.

So why not let fighters do this?

Yes - but unless they do and without Tasha's options they remain a glorified commoner.

Cheers. Thanks for the specifics! It’s really helpful.

I guess my follow up would be if the fighter could have a suite of abilities - let’s call them ‘Powers’. And those powers were used by expending units of personal energy - let’s call them ‘Power Slots’. One of the 1st level powers was called “Leap” and allowed a person to jump three times higher than they normally could for about a minute. Would this not be a solution to the problem?

Or let’s say another ‘Power’ was called ‘False friend’ and allowed you to convince people to do things they wouldn’t otherwise do for a stranger, until they had chance to think about it. Would that not let them influence social situations like a wizard could

In other words, a rose by any other name, would smell as sweet.

 

[HammerMan]

Its not origin, it's power source.

4e sorta had this right. Per the 4e PHB

Martial: Martial powers are not magic in the traditional sense, although some martial powers stand well beyond the capabilities of ordinary mortals.

Emphasis mine. "in the traditional sense" is still a form of magic, just not the kind that you think of when referring to arcane or divine magic. It didn't say "martial power is not magic [full stop]", it clearly is supposed to be magical, just not the flashy magic that creates fireballs or cures wounds.

You just need to define "martial magic" a little clearer (much like how bard, warlock, sorcerer and wizard are all arcane, but different types and origins for thier magic) and you're all good.

except every arcane or divine hero in myth and 60% in modern are not spellcasters becuse they studdied... it's becuse they have a special blood line... if you need the martial power source to have a rational for why a human can do superhuman things you should need one for arcane too.

Harry Dresden was born of a magic bloodline on a special day under a special star sighn... not just anyone can learn magic
Harry potter was born of 2 magic bloodlines and imbued with extra power when the evil lich tried to kill him as a child and power of love saved him
Yugi Moto is the partial reincarnation of Atem, who solved the puzzle finding the soul of Atem
Harry Keigh was born a necroscope
Cole Sear,was also born a necroscope but they just said he could see dead people...
Gandalf was either a demi god or a greater angel depending on how you read it

yet useing the arcane power source any character made no matter the background (again 'I was a farm boy and I found a book' human wizard) can level to get wish...

 

[HammerMan]

I guess my follow up would be if the fighter could have a suite of abilities - let’s call them ‘Powers’. And those powers were used by expending units of personal energy - let’s call them ‘Power Slots’. One of the 1st level powers was called “Leap” and allowed a person to jump three times higher than they normally could for about a minute. Would this not be a solution to the problem?

Or let’s say another ‘Power’ was called ‘False friend’ and allowed you to convince people to do things they wouldn’t otherwise do for a stranger, until they had chance to think about it. Would that not let them influence social situations like a wizard could

In other words, a rose by any other name, would smell as sweet.

this is the solution we have tried the most (reflavor)...

my hexblade warlock or my college of swords bard can easily be the fighter or warlord I want... but I still have to refrence spells. I am still useing spells. I want that feel with NOT SPELLS...

my current armorer artificer (dampyre) is spiderman... (well a mix of iron spider and venom) and reflavored things like magic missle to be 'spider stingers' and thorn whip to be razor web, and lightning lure to be shock webs... and it's okay.

 

[Oofta]

but Johnson is in the fast furious movies where people jump carss building to building and jump out of speeding cars and walk it off... he just flexes out of a broken arm cast, and somehow that one car could shift to a second and thirds reverse gear...

Obviously the cars in the F&F movies are magic and Johnson used his second wind.

 

[HammerMan]

Obviously the cars in the F&F movies are magic and Johnson used his second wind.

I'm just saying... some action moves might as well be magic (my buddy is a car guy and goes on rants)