D&D 5E Truly Understanding the Martials & Casters discussion (+)

[HammerMan]

Uh...no, I'm sorry, flavorful homebrew is NOT easy to do. In fact, it's EXTREMELY DIFFICULT, that's one of the biggest problems I have with 5e. It presents this idea of being easy but it's actually really really hard to make a new class or a new subclass. People will RIP into you for it being too weak or too strong. People will oppose literally anything you do. I asked about PrCs, and was massively told "NO PrCs, those are HORRIBLE ROTTEN GARBAGE, just make it feats those are perfectly fine," except they aren't fine, because whenever people talk about feats, SO DAMN MANY then immediately say how horrible and awful feats are and how the game should never have had them in the first place. And new classes? Fuggedaboutit. There's been a near-constant push since the D&D Next playtest to eliminate as many classes as possible; even the "core four" aren't immune.

It's hard to write effective, balanced homebrew. It's harder still to find people willing to usefully critique it, rather than simply shout it down as unnecessary or wrong-headed. And it's damn near impossible to sell DMs on homebrew you find or make. The odds of actually getting to play homebrew you like are fantastically small unless you're already good friends with the DM, and I don't have anyone like that. LOTS of people don't in this modern, internet-heavy D&D culture we now have.

I ran a campaign with home brew prestige classes and totally messed up the campaign because my "abjur knight" prestige class was so much more powerful then my "shadow assassins'" and "wonder maker" prestige classes that half way through level 7 (when everyone had 2+ levels of such classes) people playing the weaker two were looking at the biggest one (the other players too) and asking "Maybe we should all just take abjur knight"

And...you know that this group is bigger than the group that's been frustrated by the caster/martial disparity for literal decades...how, exactly?

nobody knows...
back in2e (when I think the balance was the best for non4e fighter/mage match ups) there were complaints... in 3e it was just the system... in 5e it is better then 3e but maybe on par with 2e maybe not... but no one knows for sure what group has the plurality

 

[Remathilis]

I don't think anyone is arguing that the Mythic Martial is not magical in this reductionist definition of magic. It's just not that useful a definition.

IMO the Mythic Martial should access the "magic" that allows dragons to fly and stone giants to walk. It's power source is "world magic" based on exageration of the physical. It's definitely not traditional Arcane, Divine, Primal D&D spellcasting.

I really don't care what we call it but there is something different about what the Hulk can do as a martial -- super jumps, ripping up buildings, earthquake ground punches, survive in extreme conditions, sonic waves from thunderclaps, fast healing, break out of mystical bonds, terrifying mooks with a scream, etc.

And what Dr. Strange or a D&D Wizard can do -- teleport, summon monsters, call down lightning, shapechange, read minds, etc.

Mythic Martials should get Hulk physical magic and Aaragorn leadership magic not Dr. Strange magic as that is what keeps them "martial". (other stuff could be layered on but shouldn't be required)

They could also benefit from reliable abilities that mechanically bypass the "1 action = 1 discrete effect" and go to narrative completion.

It's intentionally reductionist for a reason. Mythic is magic with an artificial distinction. Much like how people argue till they are blue in the face that psionics is not and never should be classified as magic, even though psionics is a clearly supernatural. To me this feels like the kind of hair-splitting of "don't call my psionics 'magic".

Batman is supposedly a peak human with no supernatural abilities. Same thing with Black Widow, iirc. Or Green Arrow. Even in a world of Gods and Monsters, they don't do anything more than a "peak human" can do. This is where I would put the limit of the "nonmagical fighter". They can do what a peak human can. If we're not making the fighter have supernatural abilities, this is my limit.

If we are going to give them supernatural or mythic abilities, you gotta name a source. Wolverine is a mutant, Hulk was blasted with gamma radiation, Cap was infused with super-serum. If you're transcending what a normal mortal can do you gotta say how.

Dragons are innately "magical" creatures. They can do things fantastical because they are born fantastical. Now, if you want fighters to do fantastical things, they must either be born fantastical or somehow become fantastical. In D&D, neither is particularly hard to do. But you gotta explain why suddenly your swordsman faster than a speeding bullete, more powerful than a lightning rail and able to leap tall towers in a single bound. Give me something.

I'm not asking for a fighter to cast spells, nor do I want him to reign in mediocrity. I just want a little more justification for why he can now do superhero mythic bullocks other than "he's 11th level now."

 

[Oofta]

As you stated, you began from the assumption that the game is already well-balanced.

On the other hand, if those of us who believe that it isn't well-balanced are correct, then it's already broken. And therefore ought to be fixed.

But the problem is there's no consensus. Heck, how many pages were spent arguing that things that cannot occur naturally in our world isn't really supernatural or magical because anti-magic zone only suppresses certain magic? Some people want the fighter to be able to lift as much as the world dead lift record, run as fast or faster then Usain Bolt, long jump the world record at will. All things that are humanly possible but only under ideal conditions and by world class athletes that do only that one thing. Others want fighters to have mythical powers like removing mountains or changing the course of a river. Why not just expand that out to folk heroes and let them lasso a tornado or carve out something the size of Lake Michigan as a watering hole? Then there are people who want to go really old school and give fighters mercenary companies and kingdoms while the rest of the group ... well I don't know what the rest of the group is supposed to be doing.

There is a place for the supernatural and magic in D&D. I don't want my fighter to have supernatural capabilities unless I pick a specific archetype that implements it. Personally I think they kind of goofed when they made the battle master because they painted themselves into a corner. All fighters should have options to gain at least some maneuvers although perhaps the battle master could have had more or more powerful ones.

But some people look at game changing moments (which as far as I can tell were all supernatural/magic) many of which are combat related and say "the fighter needs those" while others say "it has nothing to do with combat". When it comes to non combat it's not flying or teleport except those are the types of examples we get of casters doing cool things. Is a fighter going to be able to hypnotize someone and modify their memory? I don't see how. But then when someone says "I don't want my fighter flying" the response is "nobody wants that". Except ... that's what the game changing moments are.

I think Tasha's has some good ideas on this with the different fighting styles. I think they should be added to the core list and the fighter should be able to have more fighting styles than they have now. Maybe a "major" fighting style like GWM and a "minor" fighting style like "blind fighting" which is cool but rarely comes up. Instead of getting that minor fighting style they could get expertise in 1 skill.

But that's not going to be nearly enough for the people that want fighters to be comic book super heroes or be able to run 200 feet in a round or be as powerful as Hercules. IMHO if you want to play a fighter with supernatural abilities there are plenty of options, even if WOTC has decided to encode many PC supernatural abilities as spells.

 

[Gammadoodler]

Usually "fiction".

Well, I guess you could have gone with "the supernatural" but you have landed on something equally meaningless..unless your contention is that "in-setting", magic functions by peactitioners telling lies to the universe.

That would be a fun mechanism but not one well supported by existing game literature, and not likely what you mean.

 

[Remathilis]

in 3e we had extraordinary super natural and magical.

Batman is not real... batman can not be real. Nobody no matter how rich how driven can do what batman does.. he is not super natural or magical.

Cyclops fires punch beems from the punch dimension from his eyes... nightcrawler teleports.... these are not magic (although I would argue supernatural) they are from mutation.

Gonna quibble a bit. Batman is equal parts training, tech and plot armor. The amount of each he has depends on the media (JLA comic vs his own) but a lot of Batman's "powers" come from tech, and Asimov has previously spoken about sufficiently advanced technology...

Whereas mutant powers are probably closer to sorcerer bloodlines than anything else. Right down to the collars that suppress mutant abilities in Geonosha or the fact their powers don't work in places like the Savage Land. (Anti-magic, er mutant zones). Mutation might not be "magic" according to Marvel, but it's pretty darn close. (So much so, the mutant Magik's mutant power is... To do magic).

Which is all to say that you might be able to make an argument Batman without toys is a high level mundane fighter, but Wolverine is clearly "supernaturally/magically" agumented.

 

[HammerMan]

in 2e there was a non weapon prof called DEATHBLOW... it basicly let a fighter (at will) do a save or die.

Imagine a 14th level fighter optional feature or subclass feature that read DEATHBLOW. as an action target 1 creature at 1/2 there hp or less (I wish I could just say bloodied) that target makes a Con save DC 8+ your str or dex mod+prof +magic modfired of weapon. if they fail they die. if they succeed they take damage as if you hit with a non crit on that weapon.

I wonder how many people would flip there lid over a martial SoD...

 

[Micah Sweet]

Personally, I don't think you need to make the Fighter magical by default.

To me, I think some of the class features used for class Differentiation and Niche Protection is harming the classes

• Extra Movement
• Slow Fall
• Deflect Missiles
• Attack as Bonus Action
• Dash as Bonus Action
• Disengage as a Bonus Action
• High Jump without running start
• Long Jump without running start

I mean if we are saying a Rogue can Action-Dash Cunning Action-Dash to move 90 feet a turn every turn, is it ridiculous to say a sufficiently high level fighter or barbarian can move half that every turn and still attack?

If a monk can defect missiles at no ki cost at 3rd level, is it ridiculous to say a sufficiently high level fighter deflect a missile with his or her sword or axe every turn as well for a lower DR (Dex mod + Fighter level) with no weapon catch and no weapon throwback?

If monk can slow fall, is it ridiculous to say a sufficiently high level fighter transfer his or her fall damage to an enemy to reduce their own fall damage as well? Isn't that the point of the "swing off the chandelier" stunt?

A lot of the Fighter's "Dead Levels" could be filled with features without the class becomes too complex?

I agree with this. There are plenty of things a fighter could do that would be thematic and cool, and would give new options in or out of combat. The Level Up fighter does a great job at this, to the point where that's just my answer to this issue.

 

[Remathilis]

in 2e there was a non weapon prof called DEATHBLOW... it basicly let a fighter (at will) do a save or die.

Imagine a 14th level fighter optional feature or subclass feature that read DEATHBLOW. as an action target 1 creature at 1/2 there hp or less (I wish I could just say bloodied) that target makes a Con save DC 8+ your str or dex mod+prof +magic modfired of weapon. if they fail they die. if they succeed they take damage as if you hit with a non crit on that weapon.

I wonder how many people would flip there lid over a martial SoD...

Can the assassin get it too?

That said, I'm against the "at will" for any SoD, magical or mundane. Limit it to x per rest and it's fine. (Or make it a maneuver).

 

[Oofta]

Gonna quibble a bit. Batman is equal parts training, tech and plot armor. The amount of each he has depends on the media (JLA comic vs his own) but a lot of Batman's "powers" come from tech, and Asimov has previously spoken about sufficiently advanced technology...

Whereas mutant powers are probably closer to sorcerer bloodlines than anything else. Right down to the collars that suppress mutant abilities in Geonosha or the fact their powers don't work in places like the Savage Land. (Anti-magic, er mutant zones). Mutation might not be "magic" according to Marvel, but it's pretty darn close. (So much so, the mutant Magik's mutant power is... To do magic).

Which is all to say that you might be able to make an argument Batman without toys is a high level mundane fighter, but Wolverine is clearly "supernaturally/magically" agumented.

Give a 5E fighter magic instead of tech toys and I think you can get pretty close to Batman.

But it's also a different genre. Depending on version Batman is not only the best martial artist there is, he's also as strong as anyone can humanly be without being explicitly superpowered, a genius while also having invulnerable plot armor. As much as I prefer Batman to, say, Superman he's still a Marty Stue.

 

[Fanaelialae]

But the problem is there's no consensus. Heck, how many pages were spent arguing that things that cannot occur naturally in our world isn't really supernatural or magical because anti-magic zone only suppresses certain magic? Some people want the fighter to be able to lift as much as the world dead lift record, run as fast or faster then Usain Bolt, long jump the world record at will. All things that are humanly possible but only under ideal conditions and by world class athletes that do only that one thing. Others want fighters to have mythical powers like removing mountains or changing the course of a river. Why not just expand that out to folk heroes and let them lasso a tornado or carve out something the size of Lake Michigan as a watering hole? Then there are people who want to go really old school and give fighters mercenary companies and kingdoms while the rest of the group ... well I don't know what the rest of the group is supposed to be doing.

There is a place for the supernatural and magic in D&D. I don't want my fighter to have supernatural capabilities unless I pick a specific archetype that implements it. Personally I think they kind of goofed when they made the battle master because they painted themselves into a corner. All fighters should have options to gain at least some maneuvers although perhaps the battle master could have had more or more powerful ones.

But some people look at game changing moments (which as far as I can tell were all supernatural/magic) many of which are combat related and say "the fighter needs those" while others say "it has nothing to do with combat". When it comes to non combat it's not flying or teleport except those are the types of examples we get of casters doing cool things. Is a fighter going to be able to hypnotize someone and modify their memory? I don't see how. But then when someone says "I don't want my fighter flying" the response is "nobody wants that". Except ... that's what the game changing moments are.

I think Tasha's has some good ideas on this with the different fighting styles. I think they should be added to the core list and the fighter should be able to have more fighting styles than they have now. Maybe a "major" fighting style like GWM and a "minor" fighting style like "blind fighting" which is cool but rarely comes up. Instead of getting that minor fighting style they could get expertise in 1 skill.

But that's not going to be nearly enough for the people that want fighters to be comic book super heroes or be able to run 200 feet in a round or be as powerful as Hercules. IMHO if you want to play a fighter with supernatural abilities there are plenty of options, even if WOTC has decided to encode many PC supernatural abilities as spells.

Maybe if every thread involving buffing the fighter didn't turn into a neverending debate about whether a problem exists in the first place, there'd be time to have a discussion and reach some compromise or consensus on how to go about it.