D&D 5E Truly Understanding the Martials & Casters discussion (+)

[tetrasodium]

Well, I guess you could have gone with "the supernatural" but you have landed on something equally meaningless..unless your contention is that "in-setting", magic functions by peactitioners telling lies to the universe.

That would be a fun mechanism but not one well supported by existing game literature, and not likely what you mean.

Well you quoted me talking a sword bursting into flames being magic no matter if it's done with about verbal somatic & material components or an herbal supplement that changes the body to allow them to do that when you asked what makes it work back in post 353. You appear to be hunting for an answer more concrete than the ways magic is accessed in d&d while forgetting it's a a work of fiction

 

[Micah Sweet]

Obviously the cars in the F&F movies are magic and Johnson used his second wind.

My buddy always said the F&F series is just a long campaign about a high level party.

 

[HammerMan]

Well you quoted me talking a sword bursting into flames being magic no matter if it's done with about verbal somatic & material components or an herbal supplement that changes the body to allow them to do that when you asked what makes it work back in post 353. You appear to be hunting for an answer more concrete than the ways magic is accessed in d&d while forgetting it's a a work of fiction

in AsoIaF there are three flaming swords so far (but I bet a 4th will be added if we ever get the next book).

1 is magic/supernatural... a reverent brought back by a fire/light god can use his blood to ignite the blade, and it doesn't harm the blade.

2 of them use alchemical fire that I will call '2e greekfire' it is sticky and burns and not only lites things and hurts more and is intimadating as all heck... but it also melts and misforms the blades...

now they also have something call 'frozen fire'... that we call obsidian and they sometimes call dragon glass. it seems to have a property that lets it count as a flaming weapon but only against creature vulnerable to fire.

of these 3 things 2 blades lit are not magic they are tricks, and alchemy (supernatural or extraordinary depending on how you read it) the one that the reverent blood does is is pretty much just magic... dragon glass is a middle ground.

they also have a super material/craft for weapons/armor that seems to mix D&D mithril and adamantine... but may aslo count as that frozen fire obsidian (I personally believe it does, but the evidence is circumstantial until/if we get more books)


the lines are hard to find sometimes

 

[Aldarc]

Ok, there’s 21 pages of comments. If you don’t want to clarify then cool. But I’m not going to play 20 questions, guessing what your argument is.

I am not asking you to play 20 questions to guess what my argument is. I'm simply asking you stop repeating your strawman argument that people are asking for Fighters to have spells or perform magical abilities.

Here is the first time that I responded to you, and it's a nice distillation of my argument. You claim to have read my post when you responded to it, but as soon as you say "That's fair," you launch into launching back into the claim that I was countering that people are arguing for magic, and I corrected you about it again here. You have since repeated it multiple times.

What do you think that I should glean about from the fact that you keep making this false assertion about my argument?

I'll tell you: it's that it doesn't matter how many times that I could clearly tell you what my argument, because you will repeat this strawman. And from as best as I can tell, it's just you who is doing this. @HammerMan, @Neonchameleon, @EzekielRaiden, @Fanaelialae, and others in this thread? These people have picked up on my argument without having to repeat myself to them once. I would love for you to prove me wrong. All it takes is that you don't repeat this strawman again in this thread.

I don't think that asking anyone to stop repeating this particular strawman is a tall order, because I am simply asking for you to respect the fact that this is not my argument and I don't think that bulk of people you are engaging with in this thread are arguing for this either. I find that your strawman is entirely counterproductive to the spirit of this +Thread, and I for one would love to move on to more productive things than having to correct this strawman for the umpteenth time.

 

[Oofta]

I gave up on the F&F movies a while back. Not only are the cars able to do magic, I think they're powered by gear shifting. It's the only reason they have to shift every 12.5 seconds. In top gear and not going fast enough? Grimace and downshift, then almost immediately shift back up! Works every time.

But I agree. They make about as much sense as high level D&D.

 

[Azzy]

Maybe if every thread involving buffing the fighter didn't turn into a neverending debate about whether a problem exists in the first place, there'd be time to have a discussion and reach some compromise or consensus on how to go about it.

We can't have that, though—not even in a plus thread.

 

[Remathilis]

except every arcane or divine hero in myth and 60% in modern are not spellcasters becuse they studdied... it's becuse they have a special blood line... if you need the martial power source to have a rational for why a human can do superhuman things you should need one for arcane too.

Harry Dresden was born of a magic bloodline on a special day under a special star sighn... not just anyone can learn magic
Harry potter was born of 2 magic bloodlines and imbued with extra power when the evil lich tried to kill him as a child and power of love saved him
Yugi Moto is the partial reincarnation of Atem, who solved the puzzle finding the soul of Atem
Harry Keigh was born a necroscope
Cole Sear,was also born a necroscope but they just said he could see dead people...
Gandalf was either a demi god or a greater angel depending on how you read it

yet useing the arcane power source any character made no matter the background (again 'I was a farm boy and I found a book' human wizard) can level to get wish...

There is an arcane power source. It's called the weave. Divine magic uses it to.

"By any name, without the Weave, raw magic is locked away and inaccessible; the most powerful archmage can't light a candle with magic in an area where the Weave has been torn. But surrounded by the Weave, a spellcaster can shape lightning to blast foes, transport hundreds of miles in the blink of an eye, or even reverse death itself.

All magic depends on the Weave, though different kinds of magic access it in a variety of ways. The spells of wizards, warlocks, sorcerers, and bards are commonly called arcane magic. These spells rely on an understanding—learned or intuitive—of the workings of the Weave. The caster plucks directly at the strands of the Weave to create the desired effect. Eldritch knights and arcane tricksters also use arcane magic. The spells of clerics, druids, paladins, and rangers are called divine magic. These spellcasters' access to the Weave is mediated by divine power—gods, the divine forces of nature, or the sacred weight of a paladin's oath."

Give me a martial weave that allows them to access supernatural abilities and idgadarn how they access it. Primal rage. Ki. Divine Bloodline. A magical sword lobbed at them by a watery tart. Born on a different planet. Charles Atlas training regimen. I don't care. Show me how each of these origins touch the martial equivalent of the weave and I'll relent.

 

[Aldarc]

Give me a martial weave that allows them to access supernatural abilities and idgadarn how they access it. Primal rage. Ki. Divine Bloodline. A magical sword lobbed at them by a watery tart. Born on a different planet. Charles Atlas training regimen. I don't care. Show me how each of these origins touch the martial equivalent of the weave and I'll relent.

"Please show us on the Weave where the Martial Class touched you."

 

[HammerMan]

(skip weave stuff)

Give me a martial weave that allows them to access supernatural abilities and idgadarn how they access it. Primal rage. Ki. Divine Bloodline. A magical sword lobbed at them by a watery tart. Born on a different planet. I don't care. Show me how each of these origins touch the martial equivalent of the weave and I'll relent.

adrenaline, training in mind body soul, warrior mana, the power of fiath... the power of love. power of pure will to over come... someone that watching dragonball and neruto might have more names for it...

the weave is just something we made up... we can make up 100 power sources... or we can use one... "warriors through str of will perserveance and physical training tap the weave to perform superhuman and extrodinary feats not of magic but of pure martial prowes..."

"The force talks to little things in our blood and lets us talk to nature andthe cosmic reality"

I mean we can make up what ever we want... WotC made the weave (I think TSR did in FR 2e but not sure, it is my least fav settin) so what stops them form making a martial power sources?

 

[Vaalingrade]

Give me a martial weave that allows them to access supernatural abilities and idgadarn how they access it. Primal rage. Ki. Divine Bloodline. A magical sword lobbed at them by a watery tart. Born on a different planet. Charles Atlas training regimen. I don't care. Show me how each of these origins touch the martial equivalent of the weave and I'll relent.

Behold the Legendary 'Being a Strong Guy in any Fictional Story Ever Except D&D 3 or 5'.