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D&D 5E Truly Understanding the Martials & Casters discussion (+)

Mort

Legend
Supporter
But from my perspective, that's less of a problem and more of a consequence of design. For whatever reason in this edition, the designers made martials simple and casters complex. And that leaves those who want complex martials without.
Posted this in the other thread, but I think it's applicable here:

I always chafe a bit at calling the fighter "simple" vs the caster "complicated."

In reality, especially in the beginning generation stage, the fighter's player is faced with much more complex and difficult choices than the caster's player - and they have much broader ramifications going forward.

Let's start with stat generation:

The wizard puts his highest stat in INT (unless there's a roleplaying reason he doesn't want to, but that's outside this scope) - boom done - the rest is preference and window dressing. INT will allow the wizard to be the best wizard he can be.

The fighter has to FIRST decide: Best stat in STR or DEX - this will have ramifications for the rest of the build.

If DEX then do you dump STR? you can, but Athletics is the fighters most obvious way to interact with many exploration challenges, so that's tricky. If STR, dumping DEX has serious consequences too (you can't supplement weaknesses with spells like the wizard can). And unlike the wizard, you have to concern yourself dumping WIS and CHA too because stats are the easiest way you get bonuses in a pillar other than combat. And god forbid you don't prioritize CON, low CON for a martial is dangerous (more so than for a caster, even with concentration).

Then the fighter has to make the choice of melee or ranged. Very difficult to be fully competent at both, even with a DEX build. Again choices matter here and will have ramifications for the long haul. The wizard doesn't really have to worry about this choice.

Then skills. The fighter has to pick carefully as they can't supplement without help. Pick a "fun" skill - it's at the expense of something else. Sure the wizard has this problem, but they can supplement with magic (need to descend a cliff and are lousy at athletics - you probably have room for feather fall on your list).

And it goes on.. and that's just to 1st level!

Further if the fighter picks poorly, he's stuck unless the DM is kind and lets him redo (there are now SOME options to swap out styles and maneuvers, but it's still a wait). The mage may be stuck with some subpar spells, but they can fix at every level and I've never been in a campaign where the DM has been all that stingy with spell acquisition (I'm sure they exist, but I haven't see it!)

So I'd say, in many of the ways that matter, the "simple" fighter is actually more complex than the wizard.
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EzekielRaiden

Follower of the Way
At the end of the day, D&D is a game that the designers just cannot predict. They can go the way of the board game with well-established, unyielding rules of play, but that tarnished the TTRPG experience. Even if the rules were completely balanced RAW and were required, some groups will end up homebrewing and getting frustrated by the rules without realizing how their homebrew effected it anyways. Like in monopolies case.
Again, don't make the perfect the enemy of the good. You are acting as though there are only two options: "anything goes" and "absolutely perfect ironclad balance." It is possible for there to be more effective balance; the fact that absolutely perfect ironclad balance is unachievable and even potentially undesirable has nothing whatsoever to do with whether some more balance is (a) achievable, and (b) desirable.

Unless and until you actually take seriously the argument that, yes, perfect absolute balance is not worth it but partial, better-made balance may be, you're not taking the rebuttal seriously. You're dismissing an easy strawman ("perfect balance is unachievable, and undesirable even if it could be achieved!") rather than the actual thing being said ("the balance we have could be improved to a worthwhile degree.")

Do those contributions have to include out-of-combat utility? In combat, all classes add unique contributions that differentiates them far enough that even playing a barbarian or fighter can greatly change the way you play and the roles you fill, despite them seeming similar on the surface.
Let me return your question with another: Are the pillars actually what they're presented as being?

We've been told, many times over the years since the D&D Next Playtest, that these are the three fundamental things the game is about. That while it is possible to construct an artificial situation where one or more of them is irrelevant, in practice no game can avoid interacting with them except by actively trying to do so. If that is the case--if these are the three things the game is designed to focus on, even if some groups choose not to interact with one portion or another--then yes, these contributions have to include out-of-combat utility.

It is unfair and unreasonable to provide class options that have no meaningful way to interact with the things the game is designed to focus on. This does not mean that every class needs diamond-perfection equality in everything. But it does mean that some meaningful, class-specific contributions should be found in every class. Again, it does not matter if some subset of players choose not to engage with things the game was specifically designed to do. What matters is that the developers have told us that that's what the game was designed to do explicitly, and have implied, over and over and over, that each of the classes is meant to have a fair shot at playing the game as designed. You cannot have a fair shot at playing the game as designed if you literally don't have tools to do so when others do. As stated, it is not unreasonable to consider the impact of things available to every character; pretending like such things don't exist at all would be foolish design. But pretending like such things are sufficient to balance the classes is not acceptable; the whole point is that any of those things that a Fighter (etc.; the class is emblematic) can allegedly do, a Wizard (etc.; again, emblematic) can do too, while the latter also has a whole bunch of other things.

Unless and until the books explicitly tell us, "The classes are not designed to be peers; some classes are simply better-equipped than others," I cannot and will not accept any argument of the form "but Fighters (etc.) can do [thing every character regardless of class can do]" or "but Fighters (etc.) can have/acquire [items or features that anyone can have/acquire, especially if said things depend on DM fiat.]"

(It's worth noting, here, that some things can look like these arguments without actually being them, e.g. "Fighters get more feats," which can allow them to have a feat--in the frustratingly-unlikely event that DMs actually allow feats--when someone else might not. The main problem is that, for the vast majority of the game, the Fighter is at most a single feat ahead of anyone else, and while feats in 5e are much better on average than they were in 3e, just one of them is nowhere near enough to bridge the gap....especially when those feats are competing with the almost always more powerful, and infinitely more boring, ASIs.)

If the game of D&D has been designed to be about combat, exploration, and socialization as the core, fundamental game experiences, then yes, either every class should have meaningful contributions to offer in all three, or the game should be open and honest about the fact that some classes are simply better at playing the game than others. I grow fatigued and weary with the song and dance. And since I am quite confident that neither WotC nor any company worthy of carrying the brand would ever contemplate straight-up telling Fighter fans, "Sorry Fighters, your class was designed to be less powerful than Wizards (etc.), if you want a more powerful class consider Paladin instead," because they would be quite keenly aware of the dramatic and deserved backlash such honesty would generate, I would be extremely surprised if they chose that option. That leaves only "maintain the charade of commensurability," or "actually make the classes the peers they've been implied to be for decades."

TL;DR: Stop pretending the classes are (more or less) "equal" if they aren't. Either make them actual peers, or admit that they aren't--and since admitting that would be brand suicide, it seems the only rational option is to make them peers.

Edit:
Or, if you like it structured in the form of a question...

Why is it that all classes do have to have combat components (e.g. cantrips/Sneak Attack/Extra Attack) but there is no analogous need for all classes to have support for non-combat utility functions? If all three pillars are meant to be about equally important from a design perspective, why is only one pillar something everyone gets a guaranteed provision of class-specific competence, while the rest of the game is "eh, some classes get diddly-squat, others get phenomenal cosmic power"?

Why do Wizards get cantrips and sleep and fireball, all the combat options they could want unless they actively opt out? If it's supposed to be that some classes just don't interact with some pillars in any meaningful way (and no, I don't consider the hilariously-named Remarkable Athlete to interact with other pillars in a meaningful way), why is it that there are no pure-utility, zero-combat classes, ones that can't even choose to interact with combat even if they want to, other than through absolutely generic resources?
 
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Minigiant

Legend
Supporter
I think another issue which martials is that we don't think of them as having subtypes. Where magic has schools, martial doesn't. At best you get a class that focused on a single aspect of martialdom and can progress fully into it. Magic is split into schools and subschools. This makes it easier to determine, scale, and divide them up amongst classes.

We know what low level, mid level and high level necromancy is and who gets them.
  • Athleticism
  • Battle Tactics
  • Beastmastery (Ranger)
  • Berserking (Barbarian)
  • Gadgetry
  • Hunting (Ranger)
  • Morale
  • Skullduggery (Skullduggery)
  • Siege
  • Weaponmastery
Once you tag a piece of martial out to a class, we as a community can quickly assess when something is wrong. Look how fast we found and agreed on problems with the 5e Berserker and Beastmaster.

Since none of it written out and confirmed, we can't assess which schools of martial some classes have.

Is the fighter just Weaponmastery. Or is it Weaponmastery + Athleticism? Weaponmastery+ Athleticism + Morale + Tactics? What is high level Tactics? Mid level Morale use? What does expert skill at Siege do? What can a 20th level PC who is a master of Athleticism do?
 

Fanaelialae

Legend
For those who feel that the fighter is basically fine as is, how would you rate the three pillars in terms of importance in your game?

I would say at my table it's roughly 40% combat, 30% exploration, and 30% social. Exploration and social can have a profound impact on the course of our campaigns, but we enjoy a lot of combat as well.

The reason I ask is that I'm curious whether there's any correlation between those who place a heavier emphasis on combat, and the opinion that the fighter is fine as is. I thought about making a poll, but I don't think there's any way to correlate a single factor (whether the fighter should be adjusted) with a grouping of factors (how you rank the pillars).

Recently, I've been thinking a lot about whether such an adjustment could be accomplished via optional class features like those in Tasha's. Then those who want a more well-rounded fighter could use those features, whereas those who feel that the fighter is fine-as-is could simply ignore them. I think it's a better approach than something like a new subclass, because you're not as constrained in terms of the power budget.
 

DND_Reborn

The High Aldwin
Which is why I cited that idea specifically. Your idea for a new fighter class was pretty good.

I didn't intend to not give credit where credit's due.
Thanks, I appreciate that.

I understand the frustration (look at the threads I've started, both "good" and "bad" about it. ;) ), but in light of understanding people's views on it all, I think it's important to acknowledge the attempts to find a middle-ground or solution of some sort, otherwise it feels like no one wants to solve the issue, just argue about whether or not there is one.
 

Asisreo

Patron Badass
Posted this in the other thread, but I think it's applicable here:

I always chafe a bit at calling the fighter "simple" vs the caster "complicated."

In reality, especially in the beginning generation stage, the fighter's player is faced with much more complex and difficult choices than the caster's player - and they have much broader ramifications going forward.

Let's start with stat generation:

The wizard puts his highest stat in INT (unless there's a roleplaying reason he doesn't want to, but that's outside this scope) - boom done - the rest is preference and window dressing. INT will allow the wizard to be the best wizard he can be.

The fighter has to FIRST decide: Best stat in STR or DEX - this will have ramifications for the rest of the build.

If DEX then do you dump STR? you can, but Athletics is the fighters most obvious way to interact with many exploration challenges, so that's tricky. If STR, dumping DEX has serious consequences too (you can't supplement weaknesses with spells like the wizard can). And unlike the wizard, you have to concern yourself dumping WIS and CHA too because stats are the easiest way you get bonuses in a pillar other than combat. And god forbid you don't prioritize CON, low CON for a martial is dangerous (more so than for a caster, even with concentration).

Then the fighter has to make the choice of melee or ranged. Very difficult to be fully competent at both, even with a DEX build. Again choices matter here and will have ramifications for the long haul. The wizard doesn't really have to worry about this choice.

Then skills. The fighter has to pick carefully as they can't supplement without help. Pick a "fun" skill - it's at the expense of something else. Sure the wizard has this problem, but they can supplement with magic (need to descend a cliff and are lousy at athletics - you probably have room for feather fall on your list).

And it goes on.. and that's just to 1st level!

Further if the fighter picks poorly, he's stuck unless the DM is kind and lets him redo (there are now SOME options to swap out styles and maneuvers, but it's still a wait). The mage may be stuck with some subpar spells, but they can fix at every level and I've never been in a campaign where the DM has been all that stingy with spell acquisition (I'm sure they exist, but I haven't see it!)

So I'd say, in many of the ways that matter, the "simple" fighter is actually more complex than the wizard.
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The game will definitely seem overwhelming to a beginner from any point of view, but I do still stand that the fighter is much simpler to build.

The wizard's main Stat is Intelligence, yes. But their secondary, tertiary, and quandary stats are very important as well. Where they put their dex, con, and wisdom can affect their defenses and they are all extremely important as a wizard already has poor innate defenses outside of wisdom. Con is also extremely important for concentration.

But, once we move past Stat generation, the wizard is choosing spells and the fighter is probably choosing equipment and a Fighting Style. To a new player, the fighter has to read the section on weapons and think about what synergizes well with what they have in mind. Sure, it's possible to make mistakes but even if they pick a bow as a strength-based fighter, they can always buy their better weapon later.

A wizard has to read pages upon pages of spell descriptions which they likely aren't going to fully understand in the context of the game and then know how they work. Not just the six leveled spells, but the three cantrips. Then they must Choose up to four out of the six to prepare for the day. Not to mention, they choose their subclass at level 1 as well. And the wizard's choices are more important since that's the basis of their power and defense. A new player might not completely understand how good Mage armor and shield is. They may instead prepare witch bolt, silent image, find familiar, and fog cloud. There's some utility, but they're completely handicapped in combat since they have no reliable defenses or real, decent damage. And wizard's are no less stuck with their options. You can change prepared spells or learn new ones, but the bad ones are still there and poor stat generation is even harder to fix than a fighter since they have less ASI's

So while new players can be overwhelmed by fighters, those players are also very likely to be even more overwhelmed by the wizard unless they basically have the wizard built for them.

Again, don't make the perfect the enemy of the good. You are acting as though there are only two options: "anything goes" and "absolutely perfect ironclad balance." It is possible for there to be more effective balance; the fact that absolutely perfect ironclad balance is unachievable and even potentially undesirable has nothing whatsoever to do with whether some more balance is (a) achievable, and (b) desirable.

Unless and until you actually take seriously the argument that, yes, perfect absolute balance is not worth it but partial, better-made balance may be, you're not taking the rebuttal seriously. You're dismissing an easy strawman ("perfect balance is unachievable, and undesirable even if it could be achieved!") rather than the actual thing being said ("the balance we have could be improved to a worthwhile degree.")
My point isn't that balance can only exist in two states. I'm questioning whether it's "worthwhile" to make those improvements. Everything improves and it wouldn't make sense not to improve something constantly for WoTC, but what makes this issue more important of an improvement than, say, racial bonuses. Or issues that still crop up like DM's having a hard time running monsters with spellcasting.

It's not like WoTC has been idling around. They've constantly been changing the game. But we need a reason why this dichotomy is prioritized beyond "Some people would have more fun." Because while that may be true, more people might have fun if something else was improved first, like having a Ranger that feels better to play.
It is unfair and unreasonable to provide class options that have no meaningful way to interact with the things the game is designed to focus on.
I'd agree that it would be unfair to not provide certain characters these options to meaningfully interact with things, but that's not what's happening. Every character has the means to meaningfully interact with all pillars of play, you aren't silent and blind just because you don't have a feature that tells you what you can say or see.

So I see it crop up that all characters must have equal importance in all the pillars. Though, that wouldn't be the case even if the only class in the game was a wizard, simply because players might not take equal exploration or social-based spells. And you might think every character should have equal opportunity to choose those options, but, in a way, they do.

Class isn't your character. They make up a majority of their stats, but you'd still have race, backgrounds, ASI's, proficiencies, and flavor characteristics. You can make a hardened warrior type with a scar and bulging muscles and give them the class of warlock. Really, they could be a Bard, cleric, or even wizard.

And while you may say you can't make the perfect nonmagical warrior, again, what makes that more important than the fact you can't make a one-to-one drizzt. Or that you're forced to have a cantrip as an elven fighter even if your elves are considered mundane in your world.

What makes this change a priority?
 

Fanaelialae

Legend
I'd agree that it would be unfair to not provide certain characters these options to meaningfully interact with things, but that's not what's happening. Every character has the means to meaningfully interact with all pillars of play, you aren't silent and blind just because you don't have a feature that tells you what you can say or see.

So I see it crop up that all characters must have equal importance in all the pillars. Though, that wouldn't be the case even if the only class in the game was a wizard, simply because players might not take equal exploration or social-based spells. And you might think every character should have equal opportunity to choose those options, but, in a way, they do.

Class isn't your character. They make up a majority of their stats, but you'd still have race, backgrounds, ASI's, proficiencies, and flavor characteristics. You can make a hardened warrior type with a scar and bulging muscles and give them the class of warlock. Really, they could be a Bard, cleric, or even wizard.

And while you may say you can't make the perfect nonmagical warrior, again, what makes that more important than the fact you can't make a one-to-one drizzt. Or that you're forced to have a cantrip as an elven fighter even if your elves are considered mundane in your world.

What makes this change a priority?
IMO, it's the degree of disparity between a high level fighter and a high level wizard.

At level 1, the wizard is still arguably a little better than the fighter outside of combat, but it isn't dramatic. Casting Alarm around the campsite is quite handy, but the fighter could certainly keep watch and at least have a chance of spotting an intruder.

At level 20, the disparity is tremendous. The fighter has improved marginally in their out of combat capacities. Maybe they have Remarkable Athlete and can jump a few feet farther. The wizard, on the other hand, can literally do just about anything with the right spells.

No, that is not an argument for the quantum caster. The wizard will never have all spells prepared, I fully acknowledge that. But even a decent subset of "Do Anything" is vastly greater than "marginally better than level 1".

In many high level campaigns, this difference is not so apparent due to various factors, ranging from DM management of spotlight time to magic items that can significantly broaden the fighter's capabilities to "vastly better than level 1".

However, those are contingent on the DM, not the class. I'll reverse the issue to illustrate. Let's say the the fighter remained as is. But the wizard's spells no longer have any mechanics associated with them, just a bit of description regarding what the spells were supposed to do. What they do, how much impact they can have on the campaign, and whether they effectively do anything at all, would be entirely reliant upon the DM. Of course, you would still have skills from your background et al to fall back on if you have a strict DM.

Does that sound like a game that is working fine-as-is, and that your average D&D player would want to play a wizard in?

Edit: the example wizard is supposed to have mechanically functional cantrips. Just realized I omitted that detail.
 
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Oofta

Legend
That's combat, and the fighter is supposed to be good at that. Plus ALL classes are good at combat.


Again combat, and they're not THAT much better than the wizard at getting hit. Assuming the same constitution a 5th level fighter is going to have 12 more HP than the wizard. That's not nothing but it's only a few more hits, not that dramatic.


5e has made this harder - a fighter will stop exactly 1 opponent per round with sentinel and grapple has some costs associated (namely losing your own mobility and effectiveness against others). Further, a fighter doing this is ALSO expending resources - they're right in the thick of it expending HP -and they don't have THAT many extra to spare.

And even then, a high strength wizard COULD do this, with a proper wizard subclass the even have more than 1 attack.

The later stuff is just a high strength and a good athletics skill. A wizard could be just fine on that front, if the player chooses to do so. It's not common, but why not? And then he's a full caster on top of that.

If a player cares about doing things outside of combat there are all sorts of options. Backgrounds and the ability to customize is one of the strengths of 5E. Spells rarely make a difference to the stories we've told at the D&D table over the years, or even if they did there would have been a different way of overcoming the obstacle. The ones who have an edge up in non-combat stuff in my games have been rogues and occasionally bards.

The decisions a player make will always have more impact on my campaigns than the magic that they cast.
 

HammerMan

Legend
D&D isn't that kind of "narrative-first" driven game though.
except with spells... you can change the narrative with spells
A narrative-first driven game would say "Any PC with the charm ability can charm a foe", it doesn't matter if your wizard uses a charm spell or your swashbuckler naturally talks the pants of every person they meet, as long as you expend the proper resource to use it.
funny enough that example is as close as we get to what I want... a rogue subclass CAN give the charmed condition.

Lots of RPGs use this sort of system, (Mutants and Mastermind's is built entirely off this sort of effect-first, rationale-later system) but D&D has commonly put the source of power as a limit to the type of effect it can produce (with some large variance across editions).
yup and I even (maybe end of last year) had a whole post/thread about mutants and masterminds compared to 4e... I don't want it to go the FULL M&M way. As much as I love 4e, I don't even want it to go that full route.

if you could play a 2e style wizard with 4e style cantrips (so mostly noncombat... although I would say detect magic could be one) with a modfied 5e concentration next to a 2e cleric (I really like spheres so that you have diffrent clerics taking from diffrent spell lists) next to a 4e warlord, and an amalgam of ranger and rogue from 4e.... along with some mix of a 4e slayer fighter with the 5e fighter (so still simple) right next to the 5e artificer and warlock I would be SUPER happy. I don't know how to do it I don't know how to balance it. but at no point do I want Mutants and Mastermind fully classless system (and in 2e with skills and power build your own class I didn't have good experences)

I left monk bard sorcerer and barabrain all out of the above. bard and sorcerer I don't have a good idea for, monk needs alot of love (maybe ground floor rewrite) and barbarian I would rather 1) not be called that and 2) maybe be made into subclasses for other classes as bezerkers...
Wizard magic never heals, etc.
except when they do (Vampiric touch, wither an bloom, magic adept)
The closest D&D ever got to it was 4e, where "magic" was basically broken into a large collection of attack + rider effects (with non-combat magic being relegated to rituals) so that a fighter swinging making his Sweeping Attack and a wizard casting "Aura of Flame" did more-or-less the same thing (damage to all creatures in an AoE) with only the type of damage and implement used changing.
and again it was far from perfect... but it was my favorite time to play a non caster... in 8 years of playing 4e we had more martial non casters then adding the last 4 years of 2e, all 7ish years of 3e/3,5 and all 7ish years of 5e added togather... and we played 2e after school so I still can count more 2e campaigns then any other edition (as I got older I have had less time to play/run)
Which leads to the biggest problem with this divide: if a Fighter can do things currently only doable by magic and do it in a way that it itself is nonmagical (such as jumping 60 ft) then either the fighter is now "doing magic" by another name (divine blood, psionics, mutant powers, radioactive spider bite) or the magic spell is a crutch for a caster to do what a talented person can do "naturally" and isn't all that "magical" (in the sense that magic stops being things that cannot be done normally and becomes technology to enable people to do things others can do naturally). Either the fighter becomes "magical" or the wizard stops being "magical". There is no have-your-cake-and-eat-it-too option.
you just need to go with the old stand by (that as far as I understand never changed but don't quote me on it) not all people have a class... yes there are warriors and soldiers, but 90% of them don't have the tricks a 3rd level fighter would have access to. Yes a Mage (any caster) is magical to them, and to monsters, but an equal to the non caster classes still

Again, if game was more like Mutants and Masterminds, where I spend X points to acquire the "Fly" ability and decide if I do it through magical spells, superhero ability, biological wings, or a superpowered jetpack, then you could achieve caster/noncaster polarity.
i don't mind classless systems, but I would prefer roles be more ingrained in classes.

in 4e you had 4 combat roles. Every class had a primary and 1 or 2 secondary roles. You could build to lean more toward a secondary role then your primary but you would still have the tools in the box to be passible in the primary (since they were baked in). I liked that but thought that 5e should do roles like that in all three pillars.

my go to example would be a 5e rouge is primary strike secondary defend but also primary sneak but secondary sneak, they are primary mobility with secondary survival.... but with the right choices you could make a rogue a leader (healer kit feat+fast hands and some potions) with useing expertise plus skill choices to fill other social and exploration roles...

now again no one pays me to make game mechanics, someone smarter and better at it would have to make it work... but that is the idea.
That would require a massive, fundamental change to how D&D is conceived and played to work though.
your way yes... my way not really. I mean I would also want "Choose heritage, background, class, archetype" to be the normal 1st level chocies with heritage and background being a mix of what race and background are now, class being like above and archetype being your 1st type of broad subclass... then at 3rd everyone would get a subclass (so kinda like warlock) and have minor choices every level in between.

I also would choose a point (in 4e 11 worker best) that you get another choice add on like prestige class (most likely name I would choose) or paragon path... and get a flat +1 to all stats that also increases your max to 21.

I would also want BOTH 4e and 2e multi classing (not 3e or 5e) but I am sure that is a pipe dream and 2e multi classing is never coming back... but feat multi classing I think was great... even magic adept haveing a bigger brother that let you add a spell to your list for you alone could be cool (see not anti caster, I want them to have fun too)

I like HD but I also like front loaded HP with less as you level... so everyone starting with 3HD, having a feat (toughness) that can grant you another HD, and not adding con bonus to them... but only getting HD then on even levels and a small set amount of hp at odd levels (if it was con bonus or the 1/2/3 like over 9th level of 2e I'm not sure...I like the 2e idea) so only the luckiest warriors would have 100hp at level 20, and almost nooene before that. this would require lowering damage on monsters a bit, but ingeneral this could help.
I guess it could happen (I wouldn't have expected the change to races that have emerged in the last year if you asked me in 2015) but it would be as big a change to the system as 4e was to 3e.
I think what we need is a ground up rewrite... but I don't want to throw out the whole system... bounded accuracy for only a small+ to most things (making stats matter more) is way better then 3e number explosion, and even is better then the up to +15 half level of 4e. however even that I think could use a bump (instead of maxing at +6 if it maxed at +8) and I think like 4e all untrained (maybe just most... I would be okay if it was just saves and attacks not skills) some boost. so an 8str character doesn't still have a -1 save at level 20 (or monster) if it was half (so 3 at current and 4 my upped way) that -1 would be +2-+3 and as such still be bad but not DC19 needs a nat 20 bad.
 


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