D&D 5E Truly Understanding the Martials & Casters discussion (+)

[FrozenNorth]

If you want to know where a person stands, look at where they demand a high standard of evidence or universal consensus, and where they will accept hand-waving.

In the heat of battle, a wizard can pinpoint his fireball spell 20’ from the hobgoblin so that it hits the hobgoblin but not the fighter in melee combat with him. Acceptable handwave.

Becoming a wizard takes years of study to learn the basics (justification for why wizards are rare), but you still start out with the same choice of backgrounds and number of skills as the martial characters (also applies to clerics, paladins and bards). Acceptable handwave.

Fighters that live in a world of heroic fantasy should be able to perform feats of strength that are commensurate to the world they live in. In they can fight a 20-ton dragon with a longsword snd shield, they should be able to suplex titans and shoot dragons out of the sky without taking the one subclass that allows it. Wait? Where did they get the power to do this? Unacceptable handwave.

 

[bert1001 fka bert1000]

Based on the poll on this we had a while back, a plurality of voters (41.5%) don't see a problem. But without an arbiter there will never be agreement. I gave a few ideas, but you can't just say "fighters should have X" without some pushback especially when people don't agree on what X is. Different people on this thread want very different things.

Anyway, I'll go back to ignoring this.

Why does everyone have to agree? If a decent amount of people -- 20%, 25%? -- want a Mythic Martial IMO the game is better for having that as an option to use or not.

1. There is a segment that is fine with things as they are.

2. There is a segment that wants to buff the current Fighter a little but still remain in the exagerated real world physics

3. There is a segment that wants Mythic Martials that go from mundance to action hero to mythic hero over the 20 levels

And others. We will never "convince" the other to have the same preferences.

That said, why are 1s and 2s so vocal about piping in on what 3. should look like and whether it should exist? As long 3 doesn't go beyond the current versatility, power, and narrative control of a Wizard then let them have at it. Let people that are excited about this hypothetical class design it.

No one from 3. is saying 1. and 2. shouldn't exist but there are a lot of 1. and 2s trying to police 3 with weird parameters that seem to boil down to "I might be more comfortable with this class that I don't want and will never play if you approach it like this or limit it like this..."

 

[Jefe Bergenstein]

Funny. It's such a small compromise that no one could allow. I wanted to know how and why a fighter can jump 60 feet or suplex an elephant. The in game rationale for such abilities. I wanted the M word to justify things that aren't doable in the real world. That always felt like a bridge too far.

I wanted something a little better than "because I said so" or "because the rules say I can." Guess I asked too much.

Why do you think you deserve an answer? Wizards don't owe me an explanation for why magic is apparently so easy to learn, reliable, and safe. Leaving it vague lets players use their imagination.

The fighter can suplex an elephant because it's stupid that spells are the only way supernatural powers manifest in a magic heavy world. Magic is tech in D&D. EVERYONE uses science/tech in our world, not just computer programmers, scientists and engineers. Fighters in a magical world would have incorporated magic into their training in different ways. They would be doing mantras of strength, using top tier dragon protein powder in their protein shakes, and learn to reflect rays with their armor and dispel magical defenses with their weapons.

 

[Jefe Bergenstein]

I never said D&D wasn't a bit silly. But if it wouldn't make sense for an action movie hero, I don't want it for my fighter. I fully accept that John McClane would have never survived any of the Die Hard movies. That half the things Dwayne Jonson does in movies are over the top. But there's a difference between that and being able to carve out chunks of a mountain or leap 60 feet at will.

The problem is, you don't just not want it for your fighter, you consistently shout down giving people the option to be such a character.

 

[Aldarc]

But can't agree on anything else.

Many times I have heard game designers say that players are great at spotting problems but not necessarily good at fixing them. That doesn’t erase the problem. Consensus should not be the enemy of a solution.

 

[bert1001 fka bert1000]

Though these kinds of discussion are why piggybacking onto an already comparable system is better than making up as you go. Nobody can agree on what’s overpowered. Luckily the spell system takes that out of our hands.

Agreed, the spell system should be a benchmark.

Let's start with the Bard as a base then swap spells slots and abilities into mythic martial stuff that is equivalent in power, versatility, and narrative control. Sometimes you could reflavor spells but other times let's come up with unique martial abilities so that the classes remain distinct.

 

[Gammadoodler]

more hp... an extra action surge per short rest and some more + to second wind bonus... and extra feat/asi and more uses of indomitable (that is already a trap for some saves... I have a +2 dex save and the DC is 17, I rolled a 14 do I want to reroll and hope for the 15?) and an extra attack... that is all you get for the last 10 levels of the game.

you can convincinly make a 20th level fighter and make him captain of the guard and a 7th level game would not notice a major change from useing any NPC statblocks...

Before anyone else does it, you also get a couple of subclass abilities...very few of which provide utility beyond what you might get in a 2nd or 3rd level spell.

 

[HammerMan]

Why does everyone have to agree? If a decent amount of people -- 20%, 25%? -- want a Mythic Martial IMO the game is better for having that as an option to use or not.

the problem lies with X% want mythic martial class/classes and Y% say it will not be D&D anymore if you have mythic martial class/classes

I gurantee you neither X or Y is 50%... but who is more? is X 24% and Y 18% or is X 20% and Y 22%?

 

[tetrasodium]

"the weave" is kind of a setting specific thing loaded with fr specific lore. Eberron dsrksun & probably raveloft have a different system depending on where you are & how they view things. Core class abilities do not need setting specific lore baked in like that & they certainly don't need the least advanced setting with the thickest coat of plot armored handwavium being the one dragging the others down

Why does everyone have to agree? If a decent amount of people -- 20%, 25%? -- want a Mythic Martial IMO the game is better for having that as an option to use or not.

1. There is a segment that is fine with things as they are.

2. There is a segment that wants to buff the current Fighter a little but still remain in the exagerated real world physics

3. There is a segment that wants Mythic Martials that go from mundance to action hero to mythic hero over the 20 levels

And others. We will never "convince" the other to have the same preferences.

That said, why are 1s and 2s so vocal about piping in on what 3. should look like and whether it should exist? As long 3 doesn't go beyond the current versatility, power, and narrative control of a Wizard then let them have at it. Let people that are excited about this hypothetical class design it.

No one from 3. is saying 1. and 2. shouldn't exist but there are a lot of 1. and 2s trying to police 3 with weird parameters that seem to boil down to "I might be more comfortable with this class that I don't want and will never play if you approach it like this or limit it like this..."

Trouble is that in these threads "mythic martial" as its apparently being called today seems to be "everything the fighter can do in combat just as well or better plus everything any other class can do within that class's niche". When anyone points out how broken that would be then contrived whiteroom scenarios like quantum wizards against fighters who spend 20 levels with as nonmagic dagger forced to upgrade to a plus one sickle.


The amount of blindness to what different classes can & can't do within the limitations of their strengths & weaknesses tends to be tossed aside just as blithely too. Just the other day there was a thread about how fighters should be tool masters because no other class fits that... Twenty two posts of dah rah each later someone pointed out the artificer who actually has that as a core part of their identity.

 

[Jefe Bergenstein]

the problem lies with X% want mythic martial class/classes and Y% say it will not be D&D anymore if you have mythic martial class/classes

I gurantee you neither X or Y is 50%... but who is more? is X 24% and Y 18% or is X 20% and Y 22%?

Yuuup. The person who ordered chicken wants an equal say in how someone else's steak is cooked. This doesn't get called out enough as the selfish BS that it is.