D&D 5E Truly Understanding the Martials & Casters discussion (+)

[Neonchameleon]

There is an arcane power source. It's called the weave. Divine magic uses it to.

The Weave is, as far as I know specific to the Forgotten Realms. It is very much not how defilers work in Dark Sun when they tear their power from living beings. And although The Weave (or rather its integration with Mystryl/Mystara and a single deity) is low on the list of things I find obnoxious about the Realms and the reasons I never run my games there it is one of the reasons I dislike the Realms.

"Because I'm Batman" is an explanation for being able to do things far beyond the abilities of normal humans. And it's a lot more meaningful as an explanation to most people than "the weave" and says a lot more about the character.

 

[Remathilis]

The actual problem is that the automatic response to 'Can we get something fun to do?' is 'LOL YOU WANT TO FLY AND THORW MOUNTAINS'

That is not 'finding common ground' or anything approaching 'good faith'.

You kept misrepresenting my position, so I'll keep misrepresenting yours.

 

[Neonchameleon]

This feels like more of a hard-magic/soft-magic divide issue. You want to quantify how "martial magic" works, but for a lot of the types of stories that support the high-powered martial trope (like a lot of mythology), magic doesn't really get quantified.

But it isn't. He's not remotely interested in Hard Magic. "The Weave" is a perfectly sufficient explanation for him. That's not even vaguely hard magic - it's nothing but words and no more meaningful than "Because I said so".

 

[TwoSix]

But it isn't. He's not remotely interested in Hard Magic. "The Weave" is a perfectly sufficient explanation for him. That's not even vaguely hard magic - it's nothing but words and no more meaningful than "Because I said so".

Not sure I'd agree. "The Weave" is a defined thing within the setting's fiction that has some sort of boundaries in how it operates (via the whims of a deity, sure, but at least that's something.) It's not "hard magic" in a Sandersonian sense, for sure, but it creates a delineation between "magical" and "not magical" that's extant in the fiction. Maybe that's enough?

 

[Remathilis]

But it isn't. He's not remotely interested in Hard Magic. "The Weave" is a perfectly sufficient explanation for him. That's not even vaguely hard magic - it's nothing but words and no more meaningful than "Because I said so".

Funny. It's such a small compromise that no one could allow. I wanted to know how and why a fighter can jump 60 feet or suplex an elephant. The in game rationale for such abilities. I wanted the M word to justify things that aren't doable in the real world. That always felt like a bridge too far.

I wanted something a little better than "because I said so" or "because the rules say I can." Guess I asked too much.

 

[FrozenNorth]

There's no consensus on the scope of the problem though. You go all the way from people like me who could see some minor tweaks because nothing is perfect to people that want fighters to have demi-god level powers and mythical heroes along with several tangents.

This is an argument to never change anything. Before change occurs there will never be consensus on exactly what to change and how much to change it, and there will always be people who are fine with the status quo.

 

[Mort]

I give up. I tried to find a common ground by having fighters have some innate magical power to justify thier supernatural feats. You all aren't having it. Fighters I guess should throw mountains like their horseshoes, be invincible to mortal blows, fly, and shoot lazer beams out their arse and why? "Because I'm Batman!"

You didn't answer the question. Why must the fighter's ability source be external and/or why must it be magic?

Now, if the answer is" Because that's what it will take for me to accept fighter's doing extraordinary things..." then ok - that's actually fair.

It's ALL100% fluff. whether the fighter can action surge because of years of training OR because he touches the mystical core of the world - that's fluff. It can even be added later AFTER some ideas on what it is the fighter should actually be able to do.

The core issue of this thread (and of some recent ones) is what can/should be done to bring the fighter in closer parity with the wizard across the 3 tiers of play.

IMO, Arguing the fluff (at least at this point) is actually a distraction from the main issue.

 

[FrozenNorth]

The wizard is a mishmash but it has a both scaling and variable subsystem in spell that allow customization.

Martial lack these. Feats don't scale. Maneuvers don't scale. Fighting styles don't scale. And none of them come in a a tenth of the amount of spells.

I agree with all of this, which is why I don’t think the problem is that fighters mash together multiple archetypes. The problem is that for fighters each archetype is implemented by excluding others, rather than additive, in the name of “realism”.

 

[HammerMan]

Funny. It's such a small compromise that no one could allow. I wanted to know how and why a fighter can jump 60 feet or suplex an elephant. The in game rationale for such abilities. I wanted the M word to justify things that aren't doable in the real world. That always felt like a bridge too far.

I wanted something a little better than "because I said so" or "because the rules say I can." Guess I asked too much.

I gave you a whole list back in post 429

here it is again
adrenaline, training in mind body soul, warrior mana, the power of fiath... the power of love. power of pure will to over come... someone that watching dragonball and neruto might have more names for it...

the weave is just something we made up... we can make up 100 power sources... or we can use one... "warriors through str of will perserveance and physical training tap the weave to perform superhuman and extrodinary feats not of magic but of pure martial prowes..."

"The force talks to little things in our blood and lets us talk to nature andthe cosmic reality"

I mean we can make up what ever we want... WotC made the weave (I think TSR did in FR 2e but not sure, it is my least fav settin) so what stops them form making a martial power sources?

 

[Fanaelialae]

Funny. It's such a small compromise that no one could allow. I wanted to know how and why a fighter can jump 60 feet or suplex an elephant. The in game rationale for such abilities. I wanted the M word to justify things that aren't doable in the real world. That always felt like a bridge too far.

I wanted something a little better than "because I said so" or "because the rules say I can." Guess I asked too much.

There's lots of potential fluff that can justify it.

Here's something that I just came up with. The Folklore power source. Fighters tend to fall into that folk hero archetype of the guy with the sword, so what if at a certain point their growing legend empowers certain folk charms (which for most people are mere superstition) with actual power. We can say it's not of the Weave. But some refer to it as the Old Magic. Most mages don't agree that it's magic at all, since they can't detect it, dispel it, or suppress it. Nonetheless, occasionally an exceptional fighter will come along who seems to harness it's power all the same.