D&D 5E Truly Understanding the Martials & Casters discussion (+)

[Gammadoodler]

Well you quoted me talking a sword bursting into flames being magic no matter if it's done with about verbal somatic & material components or an herbal supplement that changes the body to allow them to do that when you asked what makes it work back in post 353. You appear to be hunting for an answer more concrete than the ways magic is accessed in d&d while forgetting it's a a work of fiction

No. I differentiated that computers are not a good analog for magic because computers have a way that they function, while magic does not.

You said they are analogous. I have disputed that contention and specified the difference. You have not addressed this dispute.

Instead you've listed some effects and gone "well obviously these are magic" with no additional support beyond your say-so. The amusing thing is that both of the effects you've mentioned are achievable in our world without magic.

Again let me clear, saying something is 'magical' is fine and dandy. It just adds zero informational content beyond a directive to disengage from critical thinking. It is exactly the same as saying "it just works, don't worry about it".

 

[FrozenNorth]

Well it depends on the level. At 1st level it’s definitely overpowered. It isn’t at 20th level.

Is it overpowered at 1st level? Warlocks can get it at will (and scaling) at 2nd level through the Repelling blast invocation. Juggernaut Barbarians get it at level 3.

 

[Neonchameleon]

Is it overpowered at 1st level? Warlocks can get it at will (and scaling) at 2nd level through the Repelling blast invocation. Juggernaut Barbarians get it at level 3.

And human fighters and barbarians can get 1/turn on hit pushback at first level through the Crusher feat (which also adds to your Str or Con). I forget when monks can get it.

 

[HammerMan]

In one of my personal 'now shut up' responses to 'but my ~versimilitude~!' was that since adamantine and mithral exist in large enough quantities that doors are being made of the stuff, it's likely they're trace minerals that enter every living creature via the food chain, thus making all living things in the world lighter and more resilient than Earthbound versions.

You know I use diamond mines also have adamantine in them... becuse those hard metals have traces of diamond in them... and iron wood trees grow 'naturally' around them... the food grown there can be used for special things...

 

[Neonchameleon]

This too. Something can be "supernatural" without being "magic", but I don't think everyone embraces those definitions.

This is why I'm drawing out the spell distinction. What magic is is fairly nebulous - but spells have distinct features.

 

[Gammadoodler]

I never said D&D wasn't a bit silly. But if it wouldn't make sense for an action movie hero, I don't want it for my fighter. I fully accept that John McClane would have never survived any of the Die Hard movies. That half the things Dwayne Jonson does in movies are over the top. But there's a difference between that and being able to carve out chunks of a mountain or leap 60 feet at will.

Sure, but again...

What are you getting out of a level 20 fighter that you are not getting out of a level 11 or level 15 fighter?

Does level 11 deliver on the John McLane/Dwayne Johnson experience or do you really think that only happens at level 20?

Because if level 11 already delivers that, what are you getting in the remaining 9 levels?

 

[Fanaelialae]

But can't agree on anything else.

All it shows is that those that agree there is a problem have differing opinions on the best approach to solving the problem. It doesn't in any way imply that if a better solution were to be found, that it wouldn't be welcomed and accepted by the majority of those who saw a problem.

 

[Neonchameleon]

You know I use diamond mines also have adamantine in them... becuse those hard metals have traces of diamond in them... and iron wood trees grow 'naturally' around them... the food grown there can be used for special things...

And because there's an etymological connection? From the M-W entry on adamant:

The adjective dates to the early 1800s but it comes from a much older—and now much less common—noun. An adamant is an imaginary stone of impenetrable hardness. Historically, the word applied to actual stones (and other substances) believed to be impenetrable; in the 17th century the word was used as a synonym of diamond. The noun adamant comes from a Latin word meaning "material of extreme hardness, diamond."​

 

[TheSword]

Is it overpowered at 1st level? Warlocks can get it at will (and scaling) at 2nd level through the Repelling blast invocation. Juggernaut Barbarians get it at level 3.

Against single targets on a hit roll. Rather than an AOE in the example given. I do think that would be overpowered. Though these kinds of discussion are why piggybacking onto an already comparable system is better than making up as you go. Nobody can agree on what’s overpowered. Luckily the spell system takes that out of our hands.

 

[HammerMan]

Sure, but again...

What are you getting out of a level 20 fighter that you are not getting out of a level 11 or level 15 fighter?

Does level 11 deliver on the John McLane/Dwayne Johnson experience or do you really think that only happens at level 20?

Because if level 11 already delivers that, what are you getting in the remaining 9 levels?

more hp... an extra action surge per short rest and some more + to second wind bonus... and extra feat/asi and more uses of indomitable (that is already a trap for some saves... I have a +2 dex save and the DC is 17, I rolled a 14 do I want to reroll and hope for the 15?) and an extra attack... that is all you get for the last 10 levels of the game.

you can convincinly make a 20th level fighter and make him captain of the guard and a 7th level game would not notice a major change from useing any NPC statblocks...