D&D 5E Truly Understanding the Martials & Casters discussion (+)

[Aldarc]

This is all true, but doesn't exactly tell the whole story.

A fighter gets 3 attacks at level 11, and improves to 4 at level 20. Meaning that most high level fighters have 3, not 4, attacks.

A fighter can have 20 Str, 20 Dex, and high Con, but only if they use all of their ASIs to boost their stats, meaning that they won't be able to take feats. In a campaign that allows feats, that's a high opportunity cost. Moreover, by spreading your stats out in this way your to hit bonus and damage bonus are going to lag behind for many levels (or you focus on one stat to the detriment of the other, and then raise the other stat when you've capped the first stat). Once again, you're snapshotting a 20th level character, but leaving out the progression, which tells a different story.

Finally, not all fighters get superiority dice, because only one fighter subclass has access to them (unless you take the feat for superiority dice, but then that's one less ASI available).

But consider how overpowered it would be if a Fighter's fourth attack came a few levels earlier, like say at the same time that a Wizard was getting Wish...

 

[Minigiant]

Finally, not all fighters get superiority dice, because only one fighter subclass has access to them (unless you take the feat for superiority dice, but then that's one less ASI available).

One big problem with Fighter's subclass design is that there was no uniform design goals in them.

For example, every ranger subclass has a feature that increases you damage and gives you another increase or an offensive effect at level 11.

But fighter subclasses are all over. Some increase damage. Some don't. Some give you debuffs. Some don't. Some up you range. Some don't.

 

[TheSword]

This is all true, but doesn't exactly tell the whole story.

A fighter gets 3 attacks at level 11, and improves to 4 at level 20. Meaning that most high level fighters have 3, not 4, attacks.

A fighter can have 20 Str, 20 Dex, and high Con, but only if they use all of their ASIs to boost their stats, meaning that they won't be able to take feats. In a campaign that allows feats, that's a high opportunity cost. Moreover, by spreading your stats out in this way your to hit bonus and damage bonus are going to lag behind for many levels (or you focus on one stat to the detriment of the other, and then raise the other stat when you've capped the first stat). Once again, you're snapshotting a 20th level character, but leaving out the progression, which tells a different story.

Finally, not all fighters get superiority dice, because only one fighter subclass has access to them (unless you take the feat for superiority dice, but then that's one less ASI available).

Sure but if you are a champion you are doubling crit chance. If you are an eldritch knight it’s academic because you have your own methods.

 

[Aldarc]

One big problem with Fighter's subclass design is that there was no uniform design goals in them.

For example, every ranger subclass has a feature that increases you damage and gives you another increase or an offensive effect at level 11.

But fighter subclasses are all over. Some increase damage. Some don't. Some give you debuffs. Some don't. Some up you range. Some don't.

WotC designers also said that in the case of the Champion and Battlemaster, neither of these were designed with an actual archetype or subclass fantasy in mind. These two subclasses were literally designed mechanics-first as Easy Mode and Advanced Mode. I believe it was Mearls who indicated that from this perspective, they regretted how neither of these subclasses really have a flavorful identity. It's pretty apparent from this, IMHO, that WotC was afraid of building the core fighter around one or the other, so they punted it to the subclasses: i.e., the Champion was meant to appease the people who wanted a "basic fighter," while the Battlemaster was mechanically meant to appease people who wanted something closer to a 4e fighter.

 

[Fanaelialae]

Sure but if you are a champion you are doubling crit chance. If you are an eldritch knight it’s academic because you have your own methods.

And at 15th level, assuming you make it that long, the champion triples their crit chance! Wowza!

Oh wait, double is only a 10% chance. And triple is only 15%?

Sounds less impressive when I put it that way.

The EK having their own methods doesn't exactly counter the concept of "casters rule, non-casters drool". It's literally the one fighter that is also a caster.

 

[Aldarc]

The EK having their own methods doesn't exactly counter the concept of "casters rule, non-casters drool". It's literally the one fighter that is also a caster.

...which also gives the Fighter access to Shield, Absorb Elements, or even Fly. The Eldritch Knight doesn't disprove the core issue. It tacitly reinforces the core issue.

 

[Minigiant]

WotC designers also said that in the case of the Champion and Battlemaster, neither of these were designed with an actual archetype or subclass fantasy in mind. These two subclasses were literally designed mechanics-first as Easy Mode and Advanced Mode. I believe it was Mearls who indicated that from this perspective, they regretted how neither of these subclasses really have a flavorful identity. It's pretty apparent from this, IMHO, that WotC was afraid of building the core fighter around one or the other, so they punted it to the subclasses: i.e., the Champion was meant to appease the people who wanted a "basic fighter," while the Battlemaster was mechanically meant to appease people who wanted something closer to a 4e fighter.

The biggest poison in the fighter was the desire to make a "simple fighter for noobs".

They could have easily gave the fighter a "Combat Superiority" in at levels 3, 10, and 15 and had a choice of

1. Increased Critical
2. Superiority Dice and Maneuvers
3. Cantrips
4. Exploits
5. Weapon Focus

But that would be forcing fighter players to think and bE tOo CoMpLeX.

 

[tetrasodium]

The longbow is 1d8+Dex Mod.

Thanks I should have double checked the damage die instead of posting from a middle of the night fog walk but the original problem with how is damaging being calculated still stands because a fighter with 14 dex & longbow out damages 20int firebolt because (4.5+2)*x is more than (5.5+nothing)*x

 

[Mort]

Thanks I should have double checked the damage due instead of posting from a middle of the night fog walk but the original problem with how is damaging being calculated still stands because a fighter with 14 dex & longbow out damages 20int firebolt because (4.5+2)*x is more than (5.5+nothing)*x

The last several pages have been devoted, again, to fighter DPR. As in, how effective are fighters in combat.

But, once again, ALL classes are good to excellent in combat. Does it depend on build yes, could there be tweaks, yes. But ALL classes contribute in combat and play a decent role.

But, the other 2 pillars? Most other classes, especially casters, have tools built into the class to contribute.

Fighters not only have no active class tools to contribute (thus having to rely on stuff everyone gets such as backgrounds), with a few small exceptions like Tasha's allowing the battlemaster to pick non-combat maneuvers. But, even there, the class actively fights them by demanding that resources be devoted to the one pillar they are supposed to excel in: combat.

That's the problem.

 

[HammerMan]

They totally don't. You get ONE fighting style. Unless you're an absurdly high level champion. An Extra fighting style would have been a way better bonus for the Champion than a stupid crit range.

I have said I have tried houserule/homebrews before... one of them was to give all fighters 5 fighting styles known BUT only 1 can be active at a time (champion at level 10 when they would get a 2nd got 4 more and can have 2 active) it takes a bonus action to change styles.

It allowed for a little more customization and tactile thinking. We also allowed during any downtime of a week or more to trade out a style known for another.

(Now this was not the only thing we did... we also gave fighters other things too) and it still didn't really even out. AN idea pitched after 5 or 6 sessions of this was to make fighting styles grow as well... like at level 1 it does X but at level 5 it does X+Y following cantrip progrsion (so 5 11 17) but we couldn't agree on how all of them would grow.