D&D 5E Truly Understanding the Martials & Casters discussion (+)

[HammerMan]

But consider how overpowered it would be if a Fighter's fourth attack came a few levels earlier, like say at the same time that a Wizard was getting Wish...

try this... take 20th level fighter and squish it down to 10th level fighter... literally everything but HD a 20th level champion fighter gets... give it at 10th level

so 18+ crit 4 attacks 2fighting styles 2 action surges per short rest, 3 uses of indomitable, second wind healing 1d10+20 being 2 full ASI/Feats ahead of anyother class (I feel like I am missing something)

edit: I did remarkable athlete and survivor... those are improtant so I am glad I looked it up

now compare it to a 10th level war cleric

same armor and weapons, 2 less ASI/Feats, 2 less attacks but channel divinity 2/short rest, and 5 cantrips and 4 1st 3 2nd 3 3rd 3 4th and 2 5th level spells
edit: 1 less hp per level (2 at 1st level cause d8 to d10) so 11 less hp

 

[HammerMan]

WotC designers also said that in the case of the Champion and Battlemaster, neither of these were designed with an actual archetype or subclass fantasy in mind. These two subclasses were literally designed mechanics-first as Easy Mode and Advanced Mode. I believe it was Mearls who indicated that from this perspective, they regretted how neither of these subclasses really have a flavorful identity. It's pretty apparent from this, IMHO, that WotC was afraid of building the core fighter around one or the other, so they punted it to the subclasses: i.e., the Champion was meant to appease the people who wanted a "basic fighter," while the Battlemaster was mechanically meant to appease people who wanted something closer to a 4e fighter.

I wish we broke the two up...

infact new idea. Break up the 5e fighter

Battle master and CHampion as there own classes... then build subclasses for them. THe champion would be for people who want a simple class and the Battle master for those that want more complex...

 

[DND_Reborn]

same armor and weapons, 2 less ASI/Feats, 2 less attacks but channel divinity 2/short rest, and 5 cantrips and 4 1st 3 2nd 3 3rd 3 4th and 2 5th level spells

And less hit points for Cleric... only 10 at 10th level, but still, if you are trying to include everything.

 

[HammerMan]

Firebolt never catches up or "rockets past" because extra attack for fighter multiplies both the d8 & the dex mod at basically the same rate that the cantrip dice multiply. The multiplicative effect of extra attack on both Stat mod to damage & any weapon/feat/fighting style/etc mods is what makes the Fighter damage output so impossible to ignore the higher level the game goes. At level 11 with 3 attacks the difference between a d12+2 greataxe with gwm & d12 toll the dead is 51 points of damage for a total even greater than the possible max on the dice

I love how you just somehow made a great weapon fighter great axe and confused it with a bow...

someone did it up thread, I think powergamer but I can't tag him for some reason.

3 attacks at 11th level 1d8+2 if all hit (remember lower to hit too) is 3d8+6. If we compare this to a d8 cantrip (more likely to hit being a prime stat attack) it is 3d8, and that 6pts is extra... however it also debufffs (frost fire gives disadvantage, ray of frost reduces speed...why can I only think of cold... Chill touch (not cold) stops regeneration and can disadvantage) but if we go just damage with the d10s then it is 3d10. so 3d8+6 min 9 max 30 average 17. 3d10 min 3 max 30 average 16.

it may not have 'rocked past' but it atleast kept up.

 

[HammerMan]

And less hit points for Cleric... only 10 at 10th level, but still, if you are trying to include everything.

yes thank you... yes I will edit that in

edit: when i went to type it, I remembered max 1st level so it is 11hp

 

[DND_Reborn]

Class breakdown:

Full-caster: (6 classes)
Bard
Cleric
Druid
Sorcerer
Warlock
Wizard

Half-caster: (3 classes)
Artificer (ugh...)
Paladin
Ranger

Non-caster: (4 classes)
Barbarian
Fighter
Monk
Rogue

We need two more non-casters IMO.

 

[FrogReaver]

since firebolt doesn't add int to damage (it does help hit though) a long bow with a 15 or less dex is 1d8+2 (min 3 max 11 avg6) what level do we need for a d10 cantrip to match that? 1st is 1d10 so min 1 max 10 avg 5... already close but not there. 5th is 2d10 so min 2 max 20 average 11... oh shoot they just rocketed past. 11th is 3d10 so min 3 max 30 avg 16 and 17th is 4d10...

wait what about the d6 plus control cantrips... 1d6 min 3 max 6 average 3 (well below long bow) 2d6 min 2 max 12 average 7 (wait again at 5th level it looks close)

Are you forgetting to factor in the accuracy difference?

 

[nevin]

So just bear in mind that most adventures the enemy wants to engage with the PCs not avoid them. Occasional encounters may make this relevant, however in most cases enemies do more damage in melee as well.

That fighter can draw a ranged weapon like a throwing axe or javelin and be doing reliably large amounts of damage. Meanwhile the enemy is flying 20 ft away and able to do very little.

It’s also worth noting that in most cases enemies in D&D are either guarding something or trying to block the PCs. If that enemy is flying, you simply walk away - or take cover. The enemy is then either neutered or forced to engage. In a dungeon setting, the party just walk away and close a door.

The flying enemy argument for saying fighters aren’t very good doesn’t hold up in the wild.

But it's like arguing how effective mages are while assuming they know exactly what's coming and have time to memorize the correct spells. These arguments never talk about the encounters where the mage has 60 percent or more of thier memorized spells completely useless because they guessed what they'd need.

 

[TwoSix]

Class breakdown:

Full-caster: (6 classes)
Bard
Cleric
Druid
Sorcerer
Warlock
Wizard

Half-caster: (3 classes)
Artificer (ugh...)
Paladin
Ranger

Non-caster: (4 classes)
Barbarian
Fighter
Monk
Rogue

We need two more non-casters IMO.

Savant type Int based class, definitely, and maybe some kind of Cha-based Envoy or Diplomat class could fit. Much like Fighter eats up too much space as "generic master of combat", Rogue eats up too much space as "master of all skills"; both classes could stand to see part of their niches cannibalized for more specific implementations.

 

[HammerMan]

Are you forgetting to factor in the accuracy difference?

i did say "but helps you hit better" but I can skip it... that ONLY helps the mage