D&D General Not Railroad, Not Sandbox ... What else is there?

Barring discussions of bad (or at least not-recommended) ways to run a game, I prefer the distinction of "player-driven" and "dm-driven" games, where driving refers to where the motivation comes form.

In a dm driven game, the dm provides (one or more) quests and rewards for such, and the pcs go do that. The world acts, pcs react.

In a player-driven game, the pc's start out with goals they want to accomplish and set out to do so, and the dm provides challenges and opportunities for such. The pc's act, and the world reacts.

Of course it's possible to blend the two, but most games I've seen are one or the other.
 

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S'mon

Legend
Barring discussions of bad (or at least not-recommended) ways to run a game, I prefer the distinction of "player-driven" and "dm-driven" games, where driving refers to where the motivation comes form.

In a dm driven game, the dm provides (one or more) quests and rewards for such, and the pcs go do that. The world acts, pcs react.

In a player-driven game, the pc's start out with goals they want to accomplish and set out to do so, and the dm provides challenges and opportunities for such. The pc's act, and the world reacts.

Of course it's possible to blend the two, but most games I've seen are one or the other.

I think sandboxes tend not to be purely player driven, because the players need to learn about the sandbox in order to formulate goals. Their goals will be created at leastly partly in response to what they encounter in the sandbox.

The most player-driven games are the collaborative world-building games. In those the players may create characters with a bunch of goals pre-written, and the group creates the world, not the GM. I don't regard that style as sandboxing.

So eg in a sandbox the GM may create a proactive villain type NPC. Often the PCs will be reacting to what the NPC does. Later the NPC may be reacting to the PCs' actions. In a collaborative-world-build game a player may create a villain and determine a lot about them "They killed my master... I shall have my revenge!"

Of course these styles may be mixed in together, a GM may add PC backstory elements to the sandbox. The more they do that, I'd say the less of a sandbox it becomes.
 

Thoughts? Other ideas that do not fit neatly into the above, or are another (perhaps better) way of thinking of Bingo Card or Card Trick?
My view is that it boils down what is in-game and what is out-of-game.

The Railroad is what it is because the referee decided that there is only one way for the campaign to unfold for reasons other than that how the setting works. But a railroad as most define it is only one example of this. There are several ways of running campaigns that are ground on out-of-game considerations.

The Sandbox is what it is because the referee is fine with whatever the players decide as long it is something they can attempt as their character and works with the physics (or metaphysics if fantasy) of the setting.

The logistics of how to handle of all this is where things get muddled. The way to clarify things is to look at what is the primary focus of the campaign. The rest follows. For example I focus on letting players do whatever they want within the setting as their characters. In a bit of humor I call this "letting the players trash my setting." Because back in the day (circa 1980) when AD&D was all the rage among my high school friends. I knew several referees who got bent if a player tried to mess with any of the NPCs of their setting beyond the immediate adventure. My campaign stood out as something different because I just went along with the flow if the player decided that now is a good time to knock of the king. Usually it wasn't that grand but generally it was something that altered the landscape of my setting (Greyhawk then Wilderlands).

I was interested running my campaign this way because I started with hex and counter wargames first in the late 70s and then got into roleplaying. So I was used to playing out scenario where you were allowed to a lot of things to achieve the victory conditions. Then working with my friends in coming up with new scenarios to continue to play favorites. We some scenarios we tried were done to see what happen when we play under certain conditions.

That attitude got carried over to my D&D/AD&D campaigns. Once I found that players really like playing a new campaign set in the same setting where they made a change, it started me on the path that lead to what I write and referee today.

But if I didn't focused on that. Then what I would have done would have very different. Sometime that I learned when I tried other forms roleplaying like live-action in the 1990s. The boffer LARP I played, NERO, was basically D&D in the woods. But the logistic of running a live-action event meant that some elements far more flexible and natural than tabletop (players, NPCs staff roleplaying with each other). And other were far more restrictive (adventures and encounters). The basic problem is that staff and players need to rest, sleep and eat. That you can't have a adventure on one side of the site and then have another on the other side without building in the time and actually shuffling stuff around like props. So "adventures" are pretty much railroads except when they are mostly roleplaying. So I learned how to run railroaded adventures that players found fun and interesting to play.

It didn't affect my tabletop campaign because I still focused letting players trash my setting.

So the above is a long winded approach to the answer your question. If you want to know about the alternative, then the question to ask is what other things referee focus on for their campaigns other than events has to unfold "just so" (railroad) or a focus on letting players trash the setting as their characters (sandbox).

I will add that once the decision is made that player can do anything as their character in a setting (sandbox). There is not much in the way of subcategories. Everything afterwards is about logistic and how one manages the details of the setting to make the above happen. One sandbox campaign can wind up with the players deciding to be members of a military under orders. Thus one of the things the referee has to do is roleplay their commander giving out orders. Which at first glance doesn't appear much different than other types of campaign. While another sandbox campaign starts out the players on a blank hex grid with the freedom to explore in any direction.

Both are sandboxes because in both the players chose to be where they are at or start out at and they have the freedom to decide something different at any point because that what the referee has committed to focusing on. Of course there will be consequences to any decision. But one of the appeal of participating in a sandbox is the interplay of expected and unexpected consequences to decisions. In the campaign where the players choose to become part of the military, they could desert, they could roleplay in a way that they get an opportunity to resign, or they could opt to serve in the military throughout the duration of the campaign. Who knows what will happen and that part of the fun.

If the focus on something else the referee and group will find a different set of technique to be used. For example Railroads are neither good or bad. There is a way to run a good railroad, I find it harder than running a sandbox because the trick the same trick used in film or tv. You contrive a story that is interesting enough to make the audience want to keep sitting there watching. In the case of a railroaded adventure, the interesting story makes the players want to do the next encounter. The best make it so that the transition is nearly always seamless. Where to go for the next railroaded encounter is both obvious (but not too obvious) and compelling.
 

EzekielRaiden

Follower of the Way
Not...really sure I get what the difference between "Card Trick" and "Railroad" is. I don't really think it's a different gameplay style if you're giving the illusion of choices that matter. Is the idea that a "Railroad" game is really only for module play, whereas "Card Trick" is hand-crafted?

My style isn't listed, though Bingo Card is closest. I write some things, attempting to fill the world with interesting opportunities. But the players have also hared off on their own and spawned entire other adventures that I only "wrote" because I had to prepare something for a session the next day or the like (I do plenty of improv, but it helps a lot when I have some materials to work with--my well of spontaneous improvisation is much deeper than I ever expected, but it does run dry now and then.)

That is, the implication I get from the "Bingo Card" label is that it's like a book full of color-by-number images. The players can choose which ones they want to fill in, but they only have the listed images and have to follow the numbers within that image. Mine has some pre-made elements. But it also has elements created by the players (e.g. Rahim and the Silver Thread, good-guy underworld types) and locations dreamed up because a character half-remembers something relevant or the like. Players declaring certain allies they have, or collaborating with me to determine new locations to visit, etc. It can't be a Bingo Card because some of this stuff is getting written onto the card by the player--and other stuff may get clipped off of the card by player actions.

The description of the "Matrix campaign" is closer, except that I have chosen not to actually make any true hard limits, and only very very gently enforce any soft ones. That is, I have told my players that if they wish to, they can totally just pack up and leave, and I'll adapt to that. If they did so, they would likely eventually hear about bad things that happened in the lands they left (unless they intentionally avoid that possibility, which is feasible). But nothing happening there is big enough to affect the whole dang world, so the only consequences would be leaving behind the people they've met to whatever fate awaits them. They have, unprompted, brought up that they value that I respect their decisions enough to do that, but that they're sufficiently invested in the local area that they don't really want to leave. (One character has struggled with this--he wants to see the whole world, but he also wants to put down roots and teach, and it's actually really delightful seeing him struggle over those conflicting desires.)

Sandroad? Railbox?
Put otherwise, each chapter is basically a sandbox, but the campaign itself is not a sandbox.
For myself, I would call this a "sandroad" (there is a road, but it's got lots of messy sandy bits along the way), whereas a "railbox" would be one where you have many pieces that are railroads individually, but the setting surrounding them is much more open-ended and doesn't really have any set destination. The first part of the term refers to the micro scale, the second to the macro scale: a road made up of sand vs a box filled with rails, as opposed to a road made from rails and a box filled with sand.
 


<SNIP>
The City Bus

The game is pretty linear, but the players can easily get off the bus at any time and board another one. Once the bus has passed however it’s almost impossible to catch up, and things happen. Things happen at the end of other bus lines too, and you can’t be on all the buses at once.
This is, perhaps, the best description of old fashioned linear gaming I've ever seen. Not forced but always going in a single direction. This is also very similar to how parallel timelines are described in several Star Trek episodes.

One might call it Schrodenger's RPG. You can both fight and run from the monster as long as you haven't opened the door... :D
 

We all hear about Railroading and Sandbox games - but there is no singular definition for either of these terms, and many people would apply them differently. Further, I don't think that every game situation we see fits neatly into these two boxes.
You outlined the problem in your introductory thought. There are no real definitions, and the ones given, vary greatly depending on the individual speaking. This, in effect, makes all other definitions null and void.

The only conclusive way to do this (that I have thought of) is to label products exactly as is. For example, all adventures published by WotC are railroads. All setting books are sandboxes. There is no in between, because in reality, there is always in between.
 

éxypnos

Explorer
SANDBOX: A player driven storytelling technique
It isn't story telling at all. It is simply moving about in the world as you wish with the GM having the world react in a logical manner. A story is: (an account of imaginary or real people and events told for entertainment.). Someone may MAKE a story of the happening AFTER the events. But partaking in the events in real time is NOT story telling. If you are playing a story you are NOT sand boxing. Your definition is an oxymoron by definition.
 

payn

He'll flip ya...Flip ya for real...
You outlined the problem in your introductory thought. There are no real definitions, and the ones given, vary greatly depending on the individual speaking. This, in effect, makes all other definitions null and void.

The only conclusive way to do this (that I have thought of) is to label products exactly as is. For example, all adventures published by WotC are railroads. All setting books are sandboxes. There is no in between, because in reality, there is always in between.
Not my experience. I've found numerous descriptions and conversations to be useful, even if they are not exact or succinct. A starting place to understand the product, not the middle and/or the end.
 

nevin

Hero
We all hear about Railroading and Sandbox games - but there is no singular definition for either of these terms, and many people would apply them differently. Further, I don't think that every game situation we see fits neatly into these two boxes. So, I'd like to hear people brainstorm on other approaches that do not exactly fit into these boxes. As there is no singular universal definition for either of these terms, I am going to provide them for the purposes of this discussion, and will intentionally use a definition that is on the narrower side for each to make sure we have room around these points.

RAILROAD: A linear storyline where the DM forces players to follow the predesigned storyline of the adventure. To be a railroad under this definition, there must be a path for the PCs to follow, and they can't be allowed to meaningfully deviate from it, wityh course correction achieved either through planned obstacles, contrived improvised barriers, or out of game dictums by the DM. The DM drives the story.

SANDBOX: A player driven storytelling technique in which the DM presents options, but players drive the direction of the game towards whatever goals they wish. To be a sandbox under this definition, the DM can't redirect the party with barriers constructed with the intent to alter or limit their choices. The DM will drop options in front of the PCs, but the players are free to ignore the provided options and go in a very different direction if they so desire. The story is player driven.

So what doesn't fit neatly in these boxes? Here are a few things I have used or seen that might fit in broader definitions of Sandbox or Railroad, but I do not believe fit in the narrower ones I provided above.

BINGO CARD: The DM prepares a series of challenges and the players can choose which of the options they wish to pursue, but they are not free to go "off the menu" and pursue a goal not prepared for them by the DM. In these situations, the DM tends to start preparing several places the PCs might explore, and then tweaks them as the PCs advance so that they are an appropriate challenge when the PCs arrive there. The PCs have choice, but it is a multi-choice option.

CARD TRICK: The PCs are given the illusion of choice, but in the end there is no real choice when it comes to the big things. In this situation, the DM allows the players to make superficial choices, but regardless of what they choose to do, certain events will transpire at times selected by the DM that will progress one or more main storylines. For example, the PCs would be given choices like a sandbox game, but the DM will include an artifact in a treasure haul right before they hit 5th level, enemies will come looking for the item and try to steal it at 8th level (and will continue to do so until they succeed), the PCs will discover where it is by coming across clues at 11th level that indicate that they must use it, and the PCs be given their chance to use it to save the world at 17th level. The main storyline is on a railroad, but the supplemental storylines are a sandbox.

Thoughts? Other ideas that do not fit neatly into the above, or are another (perhaps better) way of thinking of Bingo Card or Card Trick?
I run something closer to Bingo Card/sandbox. the options that pop up are based on what the characters do plus the predefined things I've go going in the background. they can and do ignore things I thought they'd love and then towns get wiped out other adventurers take care of it etc. Those events in the background lead to more options. If my players decide to just turn right and ignore everything I'll let em, and had it happen once then I just pull stuff out of my........... and we move on. But the main thing in my games is all actions have consequences. Some known some unknown.
 

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