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D&D 5E Truly Understanding the Martials & Casters discussion (+)


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It's easy to have a con based class without giving them hundreds of hp. Barring the special dcc polyhedral dice most polyhedral dice sets come with a d20, d12, d10(sometimes two), d8, d6, & d4.... use that last one & it doesn't matter if they have (hd+5)*level HP
 

It's easy to have a con based class without giving them hundreds of hp. Barring the special dcc polyhedral dice most polyhedral dice sets come with a d20, d12, d10(sometimes two), d8, d6, & d4.... use that last one & it doesn't matter if they have (hd+5)*level HP
Consider that by Max level the wizard is going to have more hp than your con using d4 hp sorcerer if he uses ASI for maxing int and then con (possibly with resilient con in there). That seems off for a con focused class. It makes it obvious you are trying to design against the grain of the system.
 

The fact that we've had Sorcerers use CON for spellcasting since we started playing 5E and it worked fine. When we removed the link between CON and hp, it still worked well and made sense of course.

It was just a reference to our game and play experience.
Cool. I mean I don't think it's a game breaking change. I just don't like seeing a caster class like sorcerer equaling the hp of a fighter or a rogue without some tradeoffs. It's more a conceptual issue. If one changed the whole hp system of 5e such that all hp was tied to class (or most all of it) then such a concept works better (but that gets into changing the system to accomodate a class vs creating a class within the confines of the system).
 

Consider that by Max level the wizard is going to have more hp than your con using d4 hp sorcerer if he uses ASI for maxing int and then con (possibly with resilient con in there). That seems off for a con focused class. It makes it obvious you are trying to design against the grain of the system.
Luckily the con based sorcerer can completely ignore int & gleefully put a rolled 3 in there with basically no loss. It's rare for a wizard to have more than 12 or maybe 14 con.
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Even if you round the d4 down to 2+con 2+5=7 & 7 is more than 4+2=6. If it takes 16 con for a wizard to pull even & 18 con for them to pull ahead the "but Wizards!!!" example has veered off a cliff over more than just one shark.
 

Luckily the con based sorcerer can completely ignore int & gleefully put a rolled 3 in there with basically no loss. It's rare for a wizard to have more than 12 or maybe 14 con.
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Even if you round the d4 down to 2+con 2+5=7 & 7 is more than 4+2=6. If it takes 16 con for a wizard to pull even & 18 con for them to pull ahead the "but Wizards!!!" example has veered off a cliff over more than just one shark.
I don't think I've ever played a wizard with less than 14 con. Many of mine start with 16. In any event many wizards hit 20 con by level 20 and would have more hp than your con based sorcerer with 20 con.
 

If one changed the whole hp system of 5e such that all hp was tied to class (or most all of it) then such a concept works better (but that gets into changing the system to accomodate a class vs creating a class within the confines of the system).
More or less what we did. In short, we removed hp from any ability per level. You get your highest ability modifier at level 1. If your highest modifier increases, so do your hp. It helps reduce hp bloat. FWIW, all creatures lose CON bonus hp as well, so it across the board.

If you want to learn more, PM me. :)
 

That's something I'd push back very hard on. IMO no class should be Con based in a game that ties Con to hp in the way that 5e does.
I personally think CON should have it's HP bonus lessened so people take CON to actually be tough.

I think all the Modifier really should grow on a curve. 14 gives +1, 16 +2, 18 +4 and 20+6.

Although one thing I believe should come back is certain classes having better modifiers for the same score. Or double modifier to damage or HP.
 

Doesn't even really have to be packed that closely. @tetrasodium had peak level 20 dpr with no misses and gwm at 110 damage. Fireball at 8dd does 28 avg dmg per target (with no saves) which puts the break-even-plus-a-little-bit at 4 targets... vs the area of fireball which takes up like 44 squares (depending on how you draw your sphere).

So, if like 10% of your fireball aoe is occupied, you do a little better than break even against a lvl 20 fighters peak damage with feats and magic weapons..and you do it with a third level spell.
Is the party fighting 4 Solars? 4 ancient dragons? 4 Balors? 4 Pit fiends? 4 Liches? If the party is fighting 4(or more) of a CR 20+ encounter, they're probably all dead before the fight begins.

That fireball is going to be less than stellar against most fights at that level.
 


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