D&D 5E Truly Understanding the Martials & Casters discussion (+)

[FrogReaver]

My guess is that the whireroom will be something like four flying adamantine golems throwing rocks from difficult terrain below for the Fighter against 50 goblins squeezed in a cage for the wizard to avoid anything like that.

What actual evidence gives you that impression?

 

[TwoSix]

Well, I'm already on record as believing WotC the corporation caved to social pressure and online complaining on this, even if some of the devs were in favor of it before. But it hardly matters now.

One person's "caving to social pressure" is another's "finally accepting the need to do the right thing." One's position on whether or not WotC took a correct action is really just a referendum on whether you believe the old rules or the new ones are more "morally correct".

 

[tetrasodium]

What actual evidence gives you that impression?

The fact that basically every whireroom used in this thread to show why fighters are bad is generally flawed in the extreme in ways that rarely reflect actual game play or wotc's creature design is the first big reason.

Secondly there is the fact that basically any attempts people make at pointing those things out results in someone from the buff fighters to mythic nonmsvuc legendary whatever crowd ignoring the context of that attempt as they fisk through the attempt and change the topic as if the original whireroom was proven valid evidence.

That impression is built on quite a bit of "actual vidence".

 

[FrogReaver]

The fact that basically every whireroom used in this thread to show why fighters are bad is generally flawed in the extreme in ways that rarely reflect actual game play or wotc's creature design is the first big reason.

That doesn’t explain how this one is. So what extreme flaws does this one have?

Secondly there is the fact that basically any attempts people make at pointing those things out results in someone from the buff fighters to mythic nonmsvuc legendary whatever crowd ignoring the context of that attempt as they fisk through the attempt and change the topic as if the original whireroom was proven valid evidence.

Where is that happening with this one?

That impression is built on quite a bit of "actual vidence".

IMO. You’ve failed to cite any that relates to this white room.

 

[Gammadoodler]

I’m actually a little interested in how many enemies @Maxperson expects a level 11 party to see in an average encounter. For me the number would probably be 3-4. Some encounters with 1-2. Some with 3-4. Some with 5–10.

Thiugh I could be persuaded that to budget 8 encounters you on average see fewer enemies per encounter than I am used to.

Also a point in @Maxperson 's favor.. combat with more enemies is a bigger hassle to run for the dm, regardless of whether it is balanced. I don't know if that's a good reason to ignore that it can happen without being unusual, but I can see how it'd shape "the normal d&d experience"

 

[FrogReaver]

One person's "caving to social pressure" is another's "finally accepting the need to do the right thing." One's position on whether or not WotC took a correct action is really just a referendum on whether you believe the old rules or the new ones are more "morally correct".

I think that’s a lot of it.

Caving to social pressure is negative. Having social pressure convince you to relook at the issue and possibly change your opinion is positive. So that part boils down to whether you view it as a positive or negative change.

However, Im more concerned with the idea where there was no social pressure involved. That to me feels like more like a denial of the things I saw with my own eyes.

 

[FrogReaver]

Also a point in @Maxperson 's favor.. combat with more enemies is a bigger hassle to run for the dm, regardless of whether it is balanced. I don't know if that's a good reason to ignore that it can happen without being unusual, but I can see how it'd shape "the normal d&d experience"

To me defining the ‘normal d&d experience’ is a lost cause. There’s a range of ‘normal d&d experiences.’

All I hope to do is use assumptions that are reasonable (not perfect) for a decent sized segment of d&d groups. Other groups can reasonably have different experiences and may require a different set of reasonable assumptions. That’s fine. This is a starting point. Not an end point. Numbers featuring other reasonable assumptions can always be run to provide greater context to the discussion.

For example, maybe fighters really are masters of combat when facing solos every encounter and they are packing some serious magical weapons. That’s important to know, but even though that can be true it doesn’t negate the results of the white room reasonable assumptions we have established.

There’s no need to battle over the normative d&d experience because there isn’t one. A single white room isn’t evidence that things are balanced or imbalanced under significantly different assumptions. Other white rooms are for that.

 

[Minigiant]

One person's "caving to social pressure" is another's "finally accepting the need to do the right thing." One's position on whether or not WotC took a correct action is really just a referendum on whether you believe the old rules or the new ones are more "morally correct".

I see it as "Using someone else as an excuse to do something you want to do without admitting it nor taking the backlash."

 

[Umbran]

Well, I'm already on record as believing WotC the corporation caved to social pressure and online complaining on this, even if some of the devs were in favor of it before. But it hardly matters now.

So, that's your belief.

What follows is a rhetorical exercise - I do not expect you to post your answers.

Ask yourself what independent evidence you have for your interpretation. Did WotC actually say anything to the effect of, "Since so many people are yelling about it, we give in"? Or is it mostly you deciding that the timing is too coincidental to be anything else?

Do not trust conclusions not solidly based on evidence outside your head. Our own surmises are extremely vulnerable to confirmatioin bias - interpretation based on what we expect or fear.

 

[TheSword]

I do hope at least one magic weapon is going to be factored into this model, once you get to a reasonable level.