D&D 5E Truly Understanding the Martials & Casters discussion (+)

[TheSword]

I’m interested @EzekielRaiden @FrogReaver how will you take account of wizards needing to use protection spells in early rounds of combat and the trade off between using a protection spell with concentration vs an ongoing damage spell or SOS with concentration.

 

[Gammadoodler]

We are not game designers, ideally we wouldn't need to come up with the exact implementation. Though I've dabbled, and so probably have you, so I think we could.


I don't agree. Top tier supers like Superman, Thor, Captain Marvel and Wonder Woman (though depiction of her powers is really inconsistent) are not within the scope D&D can or should endeavour to depict. Something at level of Captain America or perhaps even Spider Man, sure. (So more at flip a car rather than lift a battleship scale.) And yeah, casters could do with some slight toning down too, resurrection in particular is among the first things I tend to restrict.


There are no goalposts or two different sides, there are various people with differing opinions. My answer to both "we need a normal person class" and "we need a simple class" is that low levels are for that. High level characters don't need to be, or even should be "normal people" or simple.

Was thinking through this a bit and something like "Combat's crucible'" might work as a bridge.

"The constant clash of sword and steel, blood and grit has forged you into something more than you once were, select from the table below to reflect how you've been shaped by combats crucible"

Perfection of the flesh - your body is a deadly weapon, and you've learned secret techniques to hone it to perfection. At each level up, choose one physical attribute score to increase by 1.

One with the blade - you've become a paragon of weapon skill. You gain an additional action surge which you can use in combination with any action surge your class provides.

Etc....

Obviously these aren't balanced or tuned in any way, it's just meant as a narrative bridge from normal person to mythic.

 

[FrogReaver]

I’m interested @EzekielRaiden @FrogReaver how will you take account of wizards needing to use protection spells in early rounds of combat and the trade off between using a protection spell with concentration vs an ongoing damage spell or SOS with concentration.

That’s a great question.

my take is that at least level 1 slots and maybe level 2 slots as well will not be used in the damage calculations. Those spells slots are essentially reserved for defense, mobility, utility, etc. If it was my wizard I’d only use shield and bonus action mobility spells in combat. Possibly precast mirror image as needed. Though we need @EzekielRaiden
Input here.

I’d suggest that a wizard concerned about damage and planning to use offensive damage spells simply won’t use defensive concentration spells or at least won’t do so enough to substantially change any results we arrive at.

I suspect one thing that @EzekielRaiden will find when he sits down to calculate is that aoe spells like fireball tend to do nearly as much as the concentration damage spells. So In practice the concentration issues are probably going to end up fairly negligible.

 

[HammerMan]

An optimized fighter can out damage and out take damage an average wizard given enough combat encounters in a day.

However for that optimized fighter to do so the DM has to step on the scales a little.

given ANY one of the ingredients being off (not optimized fighter, or an optimized wizard, or just half to 3/4 of thos encounters not being combat) and you have caster supremacy in the 1 field that fighter excel in.

Take the fighter out of 'do damage' or 'take damage' and they have 0 options no available to every single other character... now a wizard can be unlucky and be out of spells, or not know spells that will help, or even just didn't prep the right spells... in those cases the wizard and the fighter are equals.

at level 7 you get 4th level spells. at level 9 you get 5th level spells. Reality alterations are already on line for 4th and 5th level spells. Once 6th level spells come up (the first level you wont get 3+ a day of) you are doing thing no group of fighters can duplicate.

wizards are the go to with this... but they are far from alone. Cleric and Druid and Bard get those 4th, 5th,6th, 7th, and 8th/9th level reality altering abilities too, BUT they can be close to equal to the fighter in weapon and armor.

there should be no doubt at this point that a 5 person all caster party and a 5 person all non caster party at level 3+ can not handle the same levels of threats... at level 7+ the casters just have dozens of extra options that can shape the entire adventure. For the caster party I will even stay with only full casters, and I will allow for more 'mythic/supernatural' non casters...

5person parties:
Party 1)
Warcleric
College of Valor Bard
Diviner Wizard
Feylock of the tome
abberint mind sorcerer

Party 2)
Champion Fighter
Theif Rogue
Battle Master Fighter
Zelot Barbarian
Empty Hand Monk

you can not tell me that even giving the 2nd party MORE magic items (more potions, more wondorus items) that party 1 isn't just packed with more options and power... the 1 place that the party 2 does best is over multi encounters with solo enemies it does better damage... by a bit.

 

[TheSword]

That’s a great question.

my take is that at least level 1 slots and maybe level 2 slots as well will not be used in the damage calculations. Those spells slots are essentially reserved for defense, mobility, utility, etc. If it was my wizard I’d only use shield and bonus action mobility spells in combat. Possibly precast mirror image as needed. Though we need @EzekielRaiden
Input here.

I’d suggest that a wizard concerned about damage and planning to use offensive damage spells simply won’t use defensive concentration spells or at least won’t do so enough to substantially change any results we arrive at.

I suspect one thing that @EzekielRaiden will find when he sits down to calculate is that aoe spells like fireball tend to do nearly as much as the concentration damage spells. So In practice the concentration issues are probably going to end up fairly negligible.

Cheers. It was a genuine question. Not sure why @HammerMan was laughing at it.

I guess my other question, would be, does this assume the presence of other characters or is it a solo fight vs the enemy.

 

[HammerMan]

Cheers. It was a genuine question. Not sure why @HammerMan was laughing at it.

I guess my other question, would be, does this assume the presence of other characters or is it a solo fight vs the enemy.

I am laughing at the whole concept...

I get to choose between casting mage armor (if I have a magic item to AC I may not need to) or useing shield to just negate most non crits, or use a SoS like the laughing spell... what a down side.

What do fighters do when they get hit... they take damage. Can they trade SoS for a negate...no they get neither.

now someone is going to bring up the feat that lets you add prof to AC... but the fighter and wizards can both take it (heck wizard with a staff makes perfect sense)

so yea, I laughed at the "I have so many cool powers to choose from" being a problem when the other class just doesn't get the cool powers.

 

[Maxperson]

I suspect one thing that @EzekielRaiden will find when he sits down to calculate is that aoe spells like fireball tend to do nearly as much as the concentration damage spells. So In practice the concentration issues are probably going to end up fairly negligible.

And I suspect those calculations will include encounters of 4+ creatures to maximize the AOE damage, despite encounters at high level not typically having that many creatures and if they do, not clumped up, and will fail to include resistances and saves against the AOE.

Looking at CR 17 and higher creatures in the MM.

Adult Gold Dragon: Immune to fire.
Adult Red Dragon: Immune to fire.
Androsphinx: No protections from fire or magic! We got one!!!!
Dragon Turtle: Immune to fire.
Balor: Immune to fire.
Ancient Brass Dragon: Immune to fire.
Ancient White Dragon: Legendary Resistance.
Pit Fiend: Immune to fire.
Ancient Black Dragon: Legendary Resistance.
Ancient Copper Dragon: Legendary Resistance.
Lich: Counterspell AND Legendary Resistance.
Solar: Magic Resistance.
Ancient Bronze Dragon: Legendary Resistance.
Ancient Green Dragon: Legendary Resistance.
Ancient Blue Dragon: Legendary Resistance.
Ancient Silver Dragon: Legendary Resistance.
Kraken: Underwater!!
Ancient Gold Dragon: Immune to fire.
Ancient Red Dragon: Immune to fire.
Tarrasque: Immune to fire.

 

[HammerMan]

And I suspect those calculations will include encounters of 4+ creatures to maximize the AOE damage, despite encounters at high level not typically having that many creatures and if they do, not clumped up, and will fail to resistances and saves against the AOE.

does no one fight orc hoards or armies anymore?

id my game (especially with bounded accuracy) that different for using hoards.

 

[Maxperson]

does no one fight orc hoards or armies anymore?

id my game (especially with bounded accuracy) that different for using hoards.

Does it matter? Okay, so you fight hundreds orcs and the wizard kills a dozen with his fireball. As I said earlier in the thread, fireball is going to be good against mooks, but mooks don't really count. He's going to run out of fireballs quickly doing that and still have the vast majority of the orc horde still alive.

 

[Micah Sweet]

If nothing else, it is a design problem when the designers choose to make a number of encounters per day that doesn't fit well with modern play session length.



Dude, they have been walking back the effective blocks on race & class fits since they got rid of racial level limits and race/class limitations, back with the release of 3e, when dwarven wizards became a thing. That was twenty years ago. Don't blame on "modern social pressure" a thing that they've been moving towards for a generation!

To be fair, they are walking it back mid-edition. That implies more urgency than usual.