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D&D 5E Truly Understanding the Martials & Casters discussion (+)

FrogReaver

As long as i get to be the frog
Cheers. It was a genuine question. Not sure why @HammerMan was laughing at it.

I guess my other question, would be, does this assume the presence of other characters or is it a solo fight vs the enemy.
Other characters are assumed but their precise contributions vary soo much from party to party that no assumptions are being made. I suppose you could count the assumption that they get in the way of AOE spells as one thing that is baked into the AOE target numbers.
 

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FrogReaver

As long as i get to be the frog
And I suspect those calculations will include encounters of 4+ creatures to maximize the AOE damage, despite encounters at high level not typically having that many creatures and if they do, not clumped up, and will fail to include resistances and saves against the AOE.

Looking at CR 17 and higher creatures in the MM.

Adult Gold Dragon: Immune to fire.
Adult Red Dragon: Immune to fire.
Androsphinx: No protections from fire or magic! We got one!!!!
Dragon Turtle: Immune to fire.
Balor: Immune to fire.
Ancient Brass Dragon: Immune to fire.
Ancient White Dragon: Legendary Resistance.
Pit Fiend: Immune to fire.
Ancient Black Dragon: Legendary Resistance.
Ancient Copper Dragon: Legendary Resistance.
Lich: Counterspell AND Legendary Resistance.
Solar: Magic Resistance.
Ancient Bronze Dragon: Legendary Resistance.
Ancient Green Dragon: Legendary Resistance.
Ancient Blue Dragon: Legendary Resistance.
Ancient Silver Dragon: Legendary Resistance.
Kraken: Underwater!!
Ancient Gold Dragon: Immune to fire.
Ancient Red Dragon: Immune to fire.
Tarrasque: Immune to fire.
I addressed these points with a counterpoint not long ago. Talking about the counterpoint would be interesting. Just repeating your previous point and ignoring the counterpoint raised tends to just take the discussion toward repeating the point and counterpoint ad nauseum.
 

Umbran

Mod Squad
Staff member
Supporter
To be fair, they are walking it back mid-edition. That implies more urgency than usual.

Yes, but then you get to ask what, exactly, is the urgency?

There is an urgency of being pushed to do something, and there is an urgency of taking advantage of an opportunity before it closes. There is a difference between feeling pressured to do a thing you don't really want to do, and moving up your plans to strike while the iron is hot, so to speak.
 


FrogReaver

As long as i get to be the frog
Yes, but then you get to ask what, exactly, is the urgency?

There is an urgency of being pushed to do something, and there is an urgency of taking advantage of an opportunity before it closes. There is a difference between feeling pressured to do a thing you don't really want to do, and moving up your plans to strike while the iron is hot, so to speak.

I think it’s valid to say the pressure may not have driven their decisions which is what I think is your main point (and it’s something I don’t think we can ever really know). But I don’t think it’s valid to say they weren’t pressured, which feels like the underlying point you are trying to make.
 


And I suspect those calculations will include encounters of 4+ creatures to maximize the AOE damage, despite encounters at high level not typically having that many creatures and if they do, not clumped up, and will fail to include resistances and saves against the AOE.

Looking at CR 17 and higher creatures in the MM.

Adult Gold Dragon: Immune to fire.
Adult Red Dragon: Immune to fire.
Androsphinx: No protections from fire or magic! We got one!!!!
Dragon Turtle: Immune to fire.
Balor: Immune to fire.
Ancient Brass Dragon: Immune to fire.
Ancient White Dragon: Legendary Resistance.
Pit Fiend: Immune to fire.
Ancient Black Dragon: Legendary Resistance.
Ancient Copper Dragon: Legendary Resistance.
Lich: Counterspell AND Legendary Resistance.
Solar: Magic Resistance.
Ancient Bronze Dragon: Legendary Resistance.
Ancient Green Dragon: Legendary Resistance.
Ancient Blue Dragon: Legendary Resistance.
Ancient Silver Dragon: Legendary Resistance.
Kraken: Underwater!!
Ancient Gold Dragon: Immune to fire.
Ancient Red Dragon: Immune to fire.
Tarrasque: Immune to fire.
So every encounter is a single boss monster? 4-8 enemies (1 boss, a couple lieutenants and 3-4 henchmen) within 80-120 feet (many high level aoes have 40-60ft radii) of each other is just beyond any kind of reasonable encounter building scenario? DMs just don't even think about challenging parties to make appropriate damage priority decisions at high level?

Sure..ok.
 

Micah Sweet

Level Up & OSR Enthusiast
Yes, but then you get to ask what, exactly, is the urgency?

There is an urgency of being pushed to do something, and there is an urgency of taking advantage of an opportunity before it closes. There is a difference between feeling pressured to do a thing you don't really want to do, and moving up your plans to strike while the iron is hot, so to speak.
Well, I'm already on record as believing WotC the corporation caved to social pressure and online complaining on this, even if some of the devs were in favor of it before. But it hardly matters now.
 

tetrasodium

Legend
Supporter
Epic
I’m interested @EzekielRaiden @FrogReaver how will you take account of wizards needing to use protection spells in early rounds of combat and the trade off between using a protection spell with concentration vs an ongoing damage spell or SOS with concentration.
My guess is that the whireroom will be something like four flying adamantine golems throwing rocks from difficult terrain below for the Fighter against 50 goblins squeezed in a cage for the wizard to avoid anything like that.
 

FrogReaver

As long as i get to be the frog
So every encounter is a single boss monster? 4-8 enemies within 80-120 feet (many high level aoes have 40-60ft radii) of each other is just beyond any kind of reasonable encounter building scenario? DMs just don't even think about challenging parties to make appropriate damage priority decisions at high level?

Sure..ok.
I’m actually a little interested in how many enemies @Maxperson expects a level 11 party to see in an average encounter. For me the number would probably be 3-4. Some encounters with 1-2. Some with 3-4. Some with 5–10.

Thiugh I could be persuaded that to budget 8 encounters you on average see fewer enemies per encounter than I am used to.
 

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