D&D General For those that find Alignment useful, what does "Lawful" mean to you

[payn]

That is beautiful, and would work if the axis weren't binary.

I always use the first axis as how a character views society and culture. The second axis is the methods they are willing to employ to achieve it.

So for your questions;

But what if I want to build structures that ensure freedom (such as liberal democracy)?

Lawful Good is the most likely. You want a structured society (law) that promotes freedom (good).

What if I believe I need power to ensure peace?

Sounds lawful evil to me. You need power so all options have to be on the table (evil). You want to apply this in a way that ensures peace (law).

Also, this poll sucks because it doesn't include my definitions at all even though I love alignment.

 

[payn]

I think that this, with some caveats, is the best articulation of the difference.

Lawful is belief that rules that bind a group are a good in and of themselves- that people should follow the rules, even when the application of them might not always be the best in a particular situation.

Chaotic, on the other hand, is the belief that those rules that bind groups are only useful to the extent that they are beneficial in that particular situation.


The distinction for lawful people is two-fold; the first is that it has to be a set of social rules. Minigiant states this is being a code that the person doesn't create themselves, which is another useful way of thinking about it, but ... this is why "lawful" can apply both to judges that enforce a set of laws and to organized crime that have an internal and rigid code that applies to them. In both cases, there is a set of rules that apply to a group, and that the group is expected to follow, and the lawful person within that group will uphold the rules.

For the most part, this doesn't apply to idiosyncratic personal codes of conduct, even if rigidly adhered to. Anton Chigurh (No Country for Old Men) is most certainly not lawful, even though he has a code of conduct. If no one else in the world has the same set of rules, then it's not lawful, because the purpose of "lawful" is ... well, for groups.

The second distinction, and what I think is the main determinant of what is "lawful," is that the lawful character will strive to uphold the rules even if the application in a particular situation might not be beneficial; there is a belief that the rules themselves are important. Personally, I find that these types of characters (regardless of whether or not you are using alignment) provides for rich fodder for roleplaying.

Thank you for this. Saved me having to type something up.

 

[Mind of tempest]

Why define pure order as the lowest definition of law? What even is "pure order"?

pure order in this context as ideally I would want a better word would, pure order would just never breaking the rules as made by a society so in that the guard would be always right but may be mistaken as to why. now unless you mean like cosmic order which is just so much of a headache

 

[James Gasik]

Lawful characters are more inclined to use logic and reason to solve problems, as opposed to "gut feelings" and emotions. Lawful characters see a society with rules and order as a positive thing, but these rules can always be improved upon. Lawful characters value teamwork and truly believe "the good of the many outweighs the needs of the few". Concepts like justice, honorable and moral conduct, and "not asking what society can do for you, but what you can do for society" are central to Lawful characters.

Of course, while Lawful Good characters try to live up to these ideas, with their belief in a better world, Lawful Neutral characters are more concerned with equity and fairness. The law must benefit the rich and the poor equally, and no deviation is allowed- you can fix the system, but to step outside of it will cause collapse.

Lawful Evil characters are the ultimate rules lawyers- while they too see social order as important, they have no problems exploiting loopholes and making sure the law benefits their interests above all others.

I want to point out that non-Lawful, even Chaotic characters can espouse some of these traits, but overall, they tend to be independent, self-willed, and free thinkers, who think that if the law is not a benefit, then perhaps it's time for a different kind of law.

Lawful characters want change to be slow and methodical, with the ultimate goal of perfection, an order so perfect that change will no longer be necessary.

Chaotic characters want change now, and the devil take the hindmost.

 

[le Redoutable]

pure order in this context as ideally I would want a better word would, pure order would just never breaking the rules as made by a society so in that the guard would be always right but may be mistaken as to why. now unless you mean like cosmic order which is just so much of a headache

euh, being LG doesn't include lowering pants or submissing to an Evil Order ...

 

[payn]

Lawful characters are more inclined to use logic and reason to solve problems, as opposed to "gut feelings" and emotions. Lawful characters see a society with rules and order as a positive thing, but these rules can always be improved upon. Lawful characters value teamwork and truly believe "the good of the many outweighs the needs of the few". Concepts like justice, honorable and moral conduct, and "not asking what society can do for you, but what you can do for society" are central to Lawful characters.

Of course, while Lawful Good characters try to live up to these ideas, with their belief in a better world, Lawful Neutral characters are more concerned with equity and fairness. The law must benefit the rich and the poor equally, and no deviation is allowed- you can fix the system, but to step outside of it will cause collapse.

Lawful Evil characters are the ultimate rules lawyers- while they too see social order as important, they have no problems exploiting loopholes and making sure the law benefits their interests above all others.

I want to point out that non-Lawful, even Chaotic characters can espouse some of these traits, but overall, they tend to be independent, self-willed, and free thinkers, who think that if the law is not a benefit, then perhaps it's time for a different kind of law.

Lawful characters want change to be slow and methodical, with the ultimate goal of perfection, an order so perfect that change will no longer be necessary.

Chaotic characters want change now, and the devil take the hindmost.

Cheers, nicely said.

 

[Mind of tempest]

euh, being LG doesn't include lowering pants or submissing to an Evil Order ...

you are correct but I was defining pure order not good order

 

[le Redoutable]

you are correct but I was defining pure order not good order

pure order, like in Astronomy where harmony is the rule ?

 

[Minigiant]

Lawful characters are more inclined to use logic and reason to solve problems, as opposed to "gut feelings" and emotions. Lawful characters see a society with rules and order as a positive thing, but these rules can always be improved upon. Lawful characters value teamwork and truly believe "the good of the many outweighs the needs of the few". Concepts like justice, honorable and moral conduct, and "not asking what society can do for you, but what you can do for society" are central to Lawful characters.

Of course, while Lawful Good characters try to live up to these ideas, with their belief in a better world, Lawful Neutral characters are more concerned with equity and fairness. The law must benefit the rich and the poor equally, and no deviation is allowed- you can fix the system, but to step outside of it will cause collapse.

Lawful Evil characters are the ultimate rules lawyers- while they too see social order as important, they have no problems exploiting loopholes and making sure the law benefits their interests above all others.

I want to point out that non-Lawful, even Chaotic characters can espouse some of these traits, but overall, they tend to be independent, self-willed, and free thinkers, who think that if the law is not a benefit, then perhaps it's time for a different kind of law.

Lawful characters want change to be slow and methodical, with the ultimate goal of perfection, an order so perfect that change will no longer be necessary.

Chaotic characters want change now, and the devil take the hindmost.

I fully and wholeheartedly disagree.

Chaotic Characters canuse logic and reason and use long term plans.

What makes them Chaotic is that they will quickly change the plans or the rules the second it becomes inconvenient.

Lawful sticks to the plan until they literally can't or some other plan or law supercedes.
Chaotic drops the plan the second it become a problem and opportunity arises.

That's why mobsters and organized crime is Lawful. They won't break mafia rules even if it gets them jailed or hurt.
Whereas the snitch is Chaotic because he or she talked to the real law to save his or her skin.

Demons can plan. Demon are chaotic because they stab the second they see a juicy back.

 

[nevin]

Lawful characters are more inclined to use logic and reason to solve problems, as opposed to "gut feelings" and emotions. Lawful characters see a society with rules and order as a positive thing, but these rules can always be improved upon. Lawful characters value teamwork and truly believe "the good of the many outweighs the needs of the few". Concepts like justice, honorable and moral conduct, and "not asking what society can do for you, but what you can do for society" are central to Lawful characters.

Of course, while Lawful Good characters try to live up to these ideas, with their belief in a better world, Lawful Neutral characters are more concerned with equity and fairness. The law must benefit the rich and the poor equally, and no deviation is allowed- you can fix the system, but to step outside of it will cause collapse.

Lawful Evil characters are the ultimate rules lawyers- while they too see social order as important, they have no problems exploiting loopholes and making sure the law benefits their interests above all others.

I want to point out that non-Lawful, even Chaotic characters can espouse some of these traits, but overall, they tend to be independent, self-willed, and free thinkers, who think that if the law is not a benefit, then perhaps it's time for a different kind of law.

Lawful characters want change to be slow and methodical, with the ultimate goal of perfection, an order so perfect that change will no longer be necessary.

Chaotic characters want change now, and the devil take the hindmost.

no Chaotic characters believe in free will. Cn is a textbook libertarian/anarchist. CG it becomes let people do thier own thing as long as they don't hurt each other, and CE is I get to do my own thing F****k everyone else. But this is just their guiding morality. Doesn't mean they won't follow rules if it's in their best interests. Doesn't mean they won't break their own morality out of fear, greed, love or some other motivation. this is why long term DM's get so frustrated with alignment. players want to use it to make their decisions for them and then you end up with Lawful stupid and Choatic crazy alignments.

Intelligence, wisdom, personality, culture and ethics also come into play so using your alignment to make decisions all the time is creating a one dimensional character. For instance an intelligent, educated, and wise, CE character might support passing Laws that benefit them. They'll break them if they ever get in the way but if they can the advantage by using Law against their adversaries of course they will.


or in a primitive society it may be accepted that law means trial by combat because the gods will make sure the right guy wins. In a more civilized society that will be ridiculed. The Civilized LG character is not going to willingly do that. The primitive LG character will think it is a perfectly reasonable and honorable thing to do. Perspective,,,,,Context......then alignment.