D&D General For those that find Alignment useful, what does "Lawful" mean to you

[Yaarel]

Alignment is a lot more than just ethics. It's also very strongly behavior patterns. In fact, a good way to look at is that the good/evil axis is more about ethics and the law/chaos axis is more about behavior patterns.

Ethics is behaviors. Actions. Activities.

G/E is altruistic/predatory.

L/C is identity: group/individual.

The alignment system correlates the political compass:

Good~Freedom
Evil~Oppression

Lawful~Collectivism
Chaotic~Individualism

 

[Maxperson]

Ethics is behaviors. Actions. Activities.

Ethics may be behaviors, but behaviors(lawful/chaos axis) are not ethics. Picking your nose is a behavior. It's not one dealing with ethics, though. Same with having orderly behavior.

L/C is identity: group/individual.

Not in D&D.

From 1e: "Lawful Evil: Creatures of this alignment are great respecters of laws and strict order."
There we have strict order being a lawful behavior that an individual can have.

From 2e: "Characters who believe in law maintain that order, organization, and society are important..."
Only one of the three involve groups. The other two, order and organization are easily applied to individuals.

Now, the rest of lawfulness(and there's a lot) in 1e/2e does focus in group and society, but after those editions alignment changes very clearly to one that allows both individuals to be lawful in and of themselves, or group think to be lawful.

I've quoted 3e and in that one lawful is very clearly individualistic or group.

4e also mentions personal codes in LG.

Aaaaand in 5e... "Lawful neutral (LN) individuals act in accordance with law, tradition, or personal codes."

You can home brew your game to make alignment like you view it, but D&D by default is what I'm stating.

 

[Yaarel]

Aaaaand in 5e... "Lawful neutral (LN) individuals act in accordance with law, tradition, or personal codes."

You can home brew your game to make alignment like you view it, but D&D by default is what I'm stating.

A "personal code" is by definition Chaotic.

However, the confusion about a "code" happens because of the insanity of Lawful confusing predictable, and of Chaotic confusing random. This nonsensical predictable-versus-random is WHY the align system keeps on failing edition after edition.

 

[Yaarel]

The root cause of why the alignment system becomes meaningless is: the tradition of predictable (Lawful Stupid) versus random (Chaotic Stupid).

This is why alignment fails.

 

[Maxperson]

A "personal code" is by definition Chaotic.

Not in D&D it ain't. This is fact. You can home brew that to be the case in your game, but the default is that a personal code(most of them anyway) is lawful.

 

[Yaarel]

Not in D&D it ain't. This is fact. You can home brew that to be the case in your game, but the default is that a personal code(most of them anyway) is lawful.

Not homebrew, but clarification.

A "code" can mean upholding the values of a specific group. Even if the person is away from the group or the last member of the group, it is still the group identity. The code of a knight or samurai comes to mind, or anyhonor code generally.

Moreover, the values can be strictly voluntary and nonpunishable, so that each individual freely decides to carry out the values of the group.

All of this group orientation is Lawful.

Of course, there are codes that are about expressing oneself as an individual, and these codes are Chaotic.

 

[Maxperson]

Not homebrew, but clarification.

There's a phrase for "clarifying" the rules into something they explicitly are not. What is that again?

A "code" can mean upholding the values of a specific group. Even if the person is away from the group or the last member of the group, it is still the group identity
Moreover, the values can be strictly voluntary and nonpunishable, so that each individual freely decides to carry out the values of the group.

It's not a code. It's a PERSONAL code.

 

[Yaarel]

There's a phrase for "clarifying" the rules into something they explicitly are not. What is that again?

It's not a code. It's a PERSONAL code.

This Lawful code is a group value that a person takes on personally, voluntarily, rather than a formal legal requirement.

 

[Maxperson]

This Lawful code is a group value that a person takes on personally, voluntarily, rather than a formal legal requirement.

No. That is explicitly not what RAW says. Taking on a group code is NOT a personal code. A personal code for an individual is the only personal code, and that has been all it takes to be lawful since 3e. That's why it differentiates group codes that people take on, laws and traditions, from the personal code of an individual.

 

[Hussar]

Lawful people can be impulsive. Thor, the protectir of oaths, is like that. Many old school Paladins are like that. When Lawfuls see their group being harmed, they lose their cool. Many Lawful Evil extremists are like this.

"Impulsiveness" is a personality quirk, not an ethical alignment.

Likewise, Chaotic person can be cool, methodical and logical, about asserting ones own individuality.

Why would you peg Thor as LG?